75 | Ger Jones on Evangelism that Listens First

In this episode, Glenn Packiam sits down with Ger Jones to explore how pastors can help their churches recover a renewed vision for evangelism. Drawing from his ministry at Vintage Church in Los Angeles and his experience with Alpha, Ger shares how churches can create spaces where spiritually curious people feel loved, heard and safe to explore Jesus. Together, they discuss why evangelism must begin with empathy, how listening can soften hearts, and why clear gospel proclamation still matters. This conversation equips pastors to reach the lost with humility, courage and renewed compassion. 

• Download Parenting the Open Generation at worldvision.org/resilient26. 
• Watch this episode on Barna’s YouTube Channel.
• View all Resilient Pastor podcast episodes on our podcast page.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Well, welcome to the Barna Resilient Pastor Podcast, where we help pastors lead with wisdom, hope, and courage in a changing world. I am Sharon Miller, and this podcast is part of Barna's mission to encourage and equip pastors to be resilient spiritually, emotionally, and in their leadership. Together, we'll explore new research and real conversations to help you understand the times and know what to do. If you're not doing so already, go to varna.com and sign up for the free Varna email to access the latest Varna articles, resources, and special discount offers. Well, friends, this is the last episode of the Resilient Pastor for the season. And so Glenn and Rich, this is kind of our recap. Like, you know, the episode of uh of Friends or you know, where where they they show like all the you know the clips from the different montage, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is this is our moment. And so, Glenn, what what are some of your uh highlights from this season?

SPEAKER_03 1:23

You know, Sharon, I think our banter has gotten um funnier. I think we've gotten funnier. You know, I think you especially, you know. Uh no, I I I've actually really enjoyed. We've had a few episodes where it's like no guest, and the three of us have been have been talking. And I I have loved asking you questions, asking Rich questions, and and hearing each other kind of play off of each other and comment on this. I think that's been part of the fun, is is we, you know, we spend some time together, we have had moments of hanging out, but we don't often have these spaces to just kind of like let's really just talk shop, you know, talk church together. And so that like that kind of church talk has been fun.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yeah. I I've actually really enjoyed the episodes where it's just the three of us as well. And so I think we need some listener feedback to just tell us like, yes, are we do we need to just have our egos brought down to size and it just has to think that?

SPEAKER_04 2:22

Tell us, listeners, tell us you loved us as much as we loved us.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Or do we is this something that you would like more of? But I I've really enjoyed it as well. Rich, how about you? What are what have been some of your highlights from this season?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Well, the two of you have been major highlights for me, all right? And they didn't pay me uh to say this here. Two conversations in particular. I'm not just like recording them, I listen to the podcast as well. Okay, same. So uh Glenn works out in the morning. I don't, but I do like wash dishes and stuff. And as I'm washing dishes, I'm listening to the podcast. And there's two conversations. One, I I really love the worship conversation with you, Glenn, you, Luke, and Anna, and Sharon, you had a wonderful conversation. That was a really uh phenomenal uh podcast interview. Uh and the the the the goal that you guys were throwing out there was just fantastic. And then, Sharon, um, your interview with Jenny uh Catr uh Katron, I forget the pronunciation of her last name. Katronine. Katrin, Katrin. And her definition of culture is one that I've been using uh a lot. I love the simplicity of it, just who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission. And that's just a really nice. So that was a two wonderful conversations, and of course, all the other stuff. Sharon, I I still am grieving with you. I know the Duke Loss was really hard. Uh and so we bring that up. I didn't want to bring it up. You just did, but you just did. Oh. But but here's the thing, Glenn. Here's the thing. I don't know why I said that. And uh and so I just want to just let Sharon know that uh I'm with you.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Well, yeah, listen, every sports fan knows the the get they get our hopes up and then they smash our hopes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Well, I I feel like you're with me. And I also I wish everyone could see our text thread when Duke was playing St. John's and how I was trying to be like a good sportsman, and apparently it came off as patronizing. I think it was a very helpful and unhelpful.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

It didn't bless their hearts. It was a bless their heart kind of moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Now here's the thing. I lesson learned. I don't want to go down too much of a road here, but whenever your team is not doing well, the best thing is to say nothing. I mean, just go dark. I mean, you know, it's just like don't say anything. So I'm just like pat you on the head. Especially when you're the winning team. Sharon's like, oh, you know, sorry, Rich. You know, it was like they really gave us a they played. It was a great run. I was like, you know, I really love Sharon. Uh, but I was like, well, this is nothing like time. This is this is not like time.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Another highlight of this year has been the late night text from uh Sharon in our text thread about AI. You know, the AI doomsday. That that was a highlight for me.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Well, I know you're on West Coast. Late night isn't that late for you.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

So for me, I also I also really love the worship conversation. And that conversation and then the elder board conversation. Those both of those podcasts turned me into the pastor who sends podcasts to their staff, which I have to be like the most annoying thing. But I I sent the elder board one to our elder board, and I was like, I do too. And same with my worship pastor and our worship team staff. And so we're actually next week, we're gonna sit down and debrief that conversation. And so it has been a true resource to me as well. So good job, guys.

SPEAKER_08 6:07

Good job.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

And uh good job, good job, St. John's.

SPEAKER_08 6:12

Oh, here we go. Okay, good. Keep all right, sure.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Um, listen, we're gonna have a conversation today about evangelism, and we got a great one with Gare Jones up in LA at Vintage, uh, also very, very connected with Alpha. But before we get into that conversation, I just want to thank one of our partners, World Vision. Together with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and the Barna team, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of kids and teens who are in your care. So you can download this free resource, parenting the open generation, and you can download it at worldvision.org slash resilient twenty-six. That's resilient two six. Um, Gare Jones is the lead pastor of Vintage Church in Santa Monica, California. He, a church that he planted in 2011, and it's grown into a thriving multi-campus community. I've had the privilege of being up there, speaking at a couple of their things on a Sunday, and they do this like church-wide retreat once a year. Gare is passionate about evangelism in a secular age, helping churches create environments where people can ask real questions, uh, encounter the presence of God, and come to faith in authentic ways. But before we get into that, guys, I just want to actually read some data here about Gen Z and their attitudes about evangelism, because I think this could be a fun place to start. Um, Barna did some new research on Gen Z, and it showed kind of an interesting shift in how evangelism is understood. So four out of five, actually over four out of five, U.S. Christian Gen Z teens, and that percent, but 83% uh said, quote, letting your actions speak rather than using words to explain your faith to someone, quote, is most likely to create a positive response among non-believers. So 83% say, yeah, my actions speaking louder than my words, that's gonna be better. Uh it's gonna create a positive response. And then 50% of Gen Z uh said, Christian Gen Z said, that basically counts as evangelism, is just letting my actions um count. So I just have this thought without quoting that, you know, line that may or may not have emerged from St. Francis that everybody, you know, always misquotes or quotes whatever. Without referring to that, what do you think about this changing attitudes towards evangelism, Sharon? Let's start with you.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

I mean, my first question is is this that new? Like this seems like kind of an idea that cycles back through every couple decades or so. The importance of having this congruent life, that evangelism isn't just about, you know, walking people through the four spiritual laws, but living in a way that is congruent with Jesus. That said, I would say, and again, this is actually not original to Gen Z, this idea that good works are essentially the same thing as evangelism. That is not a new idea at all. But I think it is important to say, and I mean, you guys feel free to push back. I would say pretty strongly, that is not evangelism. It's not evangelism. Now, one term I recently was introduced to, maybe you guys have heard this before, and I'm just slow to this, but I recently heard the term pre-evangelism. And I really like that idea of thinking of what does it look like to engage in pre-evangelism, where you are building this relationship or building your credibility or helping soften the soil of your culture. And that absolutely comes through your lifestyle, and that there should not be a gap between how we live and what we are teaching. But I do think that to make that leap that how we live is is evangelism is really problematic and actually has led to the death of a lot of mainline Protestant denominations. So I'm gonna lead with that hot take.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

I like it.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

How about you, Rich?

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Well, I think in many ways, I understand the impulse, first of all, that when when people see the inconsistency and the harm that um has come at the hands of the church, people want to know, you know, are there actions, are there works of compassion and justice beyond just words? And so I understand that. Um and secondly, when evangelism has been seen through the lens of coercion and uh prepackaged formulas, uh, it feels like it doesn't really work. At the same time, you know, the gospel is a concrete announcement that something has definitively happened in Jesus Christ. And without that level of specific articulation, here's what happens faith becomes generic and at times even confusing. Uh and so if Christians believe that something unique has happened in Jesus, that uniqueness requires storytelling. Uh and so it requires some particular articulation. And so the gift of action is that it creates credibility, it creates curiosity. Uh, and when that credibility and curiosity meet, now we have communication and proclamation now. Uh, but it requires an articulation of story. Uh that those seeds just came to me, Glenn I want to just tell you.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

I know, I'm getting blessed.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Like speaking his love language. Glenn just got chills.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Uh so uh so it is, you know, it to your point that that St. Francis thing, you know, if you know, preach the gospel and if necessary, use words. Yeah, I get that. But it's for me, it's also preach the gospel and if not and because it's necessary, yes, um, you know, use words. And so I I would not uh subscribe to that being evangelism, but being a means towards evangelism.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

Both of you are said this pushback, and I I really love that because I would agree, like evangelism, even just semantically, you and Gellion is good news, and good news is an announcement. It always was that. It was that when Romans used it as their announcement about Caesar, and it was that when the early Christians used it as an announcement about Jesus. And the announcement is that Jesus is the saving king, you know, or you know, the there I heard Michael Horton, a reformed theologian, put it this way, you know, God for us in Christ. You know, that's fine, that's great too. You know, like there there are definite ways to sort of like you said, Rich, it's a particular story that requires a particular proclamation. Good. I think what it's total conjecture here, you know, my my my kids are on would be on the young end of Gen Z. I I I I wonder if some of this um shying away from proclamation or or um words or whatever is because instead of announcement, the church has chosen argument. And argument is really off-putting to people. Right. So, Rich, you named, yeah, there's a credibility issue, our actions have been incongruent, you know, and then there's hypocrisy. So, so let's start by making our actions congruent with the thing we confess. Correct. Confession should be congruent with our actions 100%. And when you choose to use words, use words that are announcing, not arguing. And yeah, I say this, you know, I say that, and then let me let me contradict myself. Their apologetics is making a comeback right now. I mean, there's this guy, Wes Huff, who, you know, whether it's on the Joe Rogan show or the diary of a CEO podcast, three million viewers, you know, like some of those popular shows on a secular audience are engaging with an apologetics guy who's not arguing in a contentious way, but he's very clearly saying, nope, this is who's going to hell, or this is who's going to heaven, or this is how the what the so you could say, well, he's doing more announcing than arguing. I I I think maybe, maybe that would be a better characterization of what Wes is doing. But what do you think about that framing of announcement versus argument?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

That's really interesting. It reminds me, I had a conversation just two days ago, I think. One of our neighbors is a pastor, and she is a teaching, she's also a teaching assistant at Duke Divinity School. And she said she's been TAing for a class called Theodicy and Evangelism. And when she said that, I was like, tell me more. I want to hear more about this. And she was explaining it to me. And I said, I feel like what you're describing is an apologetics class, like that he's explaining how to reconcile ourselves with, you know, suffering and evil in the world. And she said, No, the professor is strongly opposed to apologetics. And I was so fascinated by that. And I said, Well, what do you mean? Because I think of apologetics very broadly as just sort of like, you know, explaining, engaging those hard questions that people have. But I think what he was saying is he is was associating apologetics was with being in a defensive posture. Got it. And saying essentially that God does not need to be defended by us, which is why he very intentionally was using the word evangelism in this class. And so that just reminded me, because I think what you're saying, you it could be argued with Wes Huff and similar ones, is he is what he is doing actually evangelism or apologetics? I guess it just depends on how you define it. But I do really like that idea that we aren't defending, you know, Jesus. We we should be able to give a reason for the hope that we have. Um, that's obviously a biblical mandate. So that's just what comes to mind for me. How about you, Rich?

SPEAKER_01 16:18

I I I love it. I love the argument versus announcement uh framework there. Um I would say, however, the depending on what you're announcing and how you're announcing it, it can be just as contentious as argument. And so people can announce Jesus is Lord and you're going to hell. That's the announcement. Uh and it's just like, well, there's you might as well just argue your way with someone else as well. So I think it's the kind of announcement. I think it's the spirit in which the it's the good news is announced. It's it's announcing God's saving love in Jesus. But I think it's through I'm announcing that something has happened, which is, you know, at New Life, whenever someone gets baptized, or um, we have trainings about how do you tell your story? Um, how do you, when the conversation emerges, how do we train people to tell a coherent story of their journey and their encounter with Jesus? So it's a story, an announcement that's coming from a firsthand experience done in humility, done in a way that meets the moment. Um, and so, but I think we do need far more announcing and and the apologetic thing. I I my early years as a Christian, I was arguing with everyone. Uh I mean, if I saw Jehovah's Witnesses on the street, I'd say, hey, come inside, let's have a chat, you know? And uh and I had my verses already, and or Hebrews 1 and John 1 and all the rest there. I was all set. Uh, but um I I like the framework. I I just think how are we, how are we announcing? That's the question.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

It is such a great thing, Rich, which ties in with what Sharon was saying about defensiveness. I and I think that's true. Like, Sharon, you're there is a charitable way to say apologetics is just really just the reasons for our faith. And and there's incredible work from so many apologetics people, you you know, um, many of whom we we are connected to and know, and is really equipping the church to know that our faith is not a fairy tale, that there's actually some really good historical reasons. You know, we talk about this at Alpha. There's a lot of ways to know, and and uh science is only one way of knowing. History is another way of knowing. Love is another way of knowing. You know, so there's there's relational knowing, there's historical knowing, there's, you know, so eyewitness accounts matter of the resurrection, all that sort of stuff. Um, in 2020, Barna did a study on digital evangelism. They found that 52% of churched Christians agree that, quote, posting about my faith online is a very important way that I share my faith with others, end quote. Now that's interesting because that seems to be announcing, seems like tone can easily be lost when we post online. But I'll tell you, I'll just give one comment and I would love to hear you guys react to that. I think the other thing I think is lost when we post online and think that we're announcing our faith or sharing our faith is that we miss the opportunity for curiosity and the ability to ask. So another, you know, we got argument, we got announcement. What about asking? And, you know, Gare is super, super in what he runs at Vintage is Alpha. We run Alpha as well at Rock Harbor. We we we this current season of Alpha, we have almost 200 people that have been coming for six or to eight weeks. And what I love about Alpha is it trains the people who are helping and facilitating tables, it trains you in the art of someone says something and you go, huh, so interesting. Tell me more about that. As opposed to like, I've got an answer for that, or I've got an announcement for that, I got an argument for that. So when you hear the stat about 52% of church-going Christians are like, yeah, posting online is important. It's an important way that I share my faith. How do you react to that, Rich?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

I mean, on some level, I I think I have tried to do that myself, actually. Um I have um the the the gap I think in my own uh social media uh presence or announcing is you named it right there. I think a growth area for me is how can I reasonably invite curiosity and conversation, which is very hard to do on a social media space, depending on who shows up and all the rest there. But I've tried to, you know, when I post on social media, I often have in mind people who two people who are um not followers of Jesus and people who have given up on the church. And so whatever I post, it's usually in service of those groups of people, which is why when some folks get upset with me for whatever, I'm just like, well, that's uh you weren't my audience. You were my audience. Um and I'm looking for I'm looking to reach other people. Uh but I I love it. And I and I think, and again, the way I do it, and I've learned, I I've looked back at uh things I've posted in 2015, 2016, and I'm just like, there was a different spirit that I shared this with. And it took Rosie to say, that's beneath you, uh, in order for it to change my ways. Uh so uh I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

You've helped me as well, uh Rich. So Sharon, how about you? Just a quick uh reaction on that.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm with Rich. Like I I definitely share my faith. Like there is an aspect of leadership and dare I say discipleship that I think we can use social media for. My only concern would be anyone who sh says that this is a significant part of sharing their faith in the same way that they have, like, you know, a bumper sticker about Jesus on their car and think that that is sharing their faith. Or they wear t shirts or they Like listen to worship music and their workplace. Like, these aren't none of these things are wrong, but they're also easy ways to self-delude yourself, you know, delude yourself into thinking like I'm having this impact without actually engaging people face to face, like incarnationally. And so I guess I'm saying there's nothing wrong with it on its face, as long as it isn't sort of your escape hatch from having to do that incarnational work in relationship with people as well.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

That's really, really good. That's really incarnational and relational work. I mean, that's that's it, you know, like uh yeah. So in some ways, the Gen Z impulse of like, I want to show this with my life is is right. That's a good impulse. Um, because how we treat people and how we live is observable only when there is that proximity. So uh to applaud the Gen Z impulse, that's right. But then to add to it training in using our words to ask questions, using our words to share our hope, using our words to provide an announcement in a non-defensive posture. Well, I think we solved it, guys. That's good. There it is. There it is. I'll be looking at the colour.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

I'm not sure what else Gare's gonna add to this.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I'll wait for the 30-page ebook.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Well, you know, it's gonna be a great combo with Gare. Let's go to that now.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Ah, my friend Gare Jones, it is so good to talk to you today, man. Welcome. Thanks, Glenn. It's awesome to see you, mate. Listen, we are talking online, but we are in truth, yeah, I could say an hour away, I could say two hours away, depending on the time of day to commute from Santa Monica down to Costa Mesa. And ironically, the last time we were in the same room together was in Oxford or London or one of the two cities.

SPEAKER_06 23:54

I know, bizarre, isn't it? It's good to have you on the West Coast. I just wish we saw each other more.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

I know, I know. We do have to fix that. Listen, there's a lot of things I want to talk to you about. And one of the the place I want to start is actually a continuation of a conversation we had when we were together. Uh now, to our listeners, I just want you to picture this, okay? Garrett and I were at this uh alpha event in it was a showcase, you know, these churches in London, Oxford, whatever. And somehow people thought it was the right thing to do to put you and me on the front row next to each other.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Which was just a disaster waiting to happen.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

So we decided to be a little bit more grown up. And so instead of, you know, talking or passing nose, we're texting each other, you know. So, but we started to have this conversation about this cultural moment and the shifts that have occurred in our culture over the last, you know, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 years. And I wonder, Gare, you know, you've been pastoring in America for a long time and you've been in the West Coast for a long time. What are some of the shifts you're seeing in attitudes toward Christianity? Well, we are seeing a shift.

SPEAKER_06 25:00

Um, and it's not as huge, maybe, as as it's just like the first fruits of it. But we are seeing a shift. I think when we first came to Los Angeles, most people were very negative towards Christians, very negative towards Christianity, very hostile. Um, it was it was quite hard to kind of admit, come out that you're a Christian. Lots of people would keep it buried. A person came to Faith on Alpha and she was like 28-year-old, very Los Angelino, and she said to me, I can't come out as a Christian. Otherwise, I'll just lose my job, I'll lose my friends. I may be able to say I'm a Jesus follower, but even then. But I think things have shifted from that hostility or starting to shift, particularly with the younger generations, away from hostility to curiosity, away from animosity to hunger. Uh they're still cautious because organized religion and politics have really kind of put them off a certain Christian persona and church persona. But the person of Jesus and their longing for something that the secular story isn't giving is kind of coming together a bit. And so um we are seeing that increasing hunger. But I would say it's more about Jesus and spirituality than church and religion. And so there's still a cautiousness towards church and Christians, but an openness, I think, to spirituality and the person of Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

It's interesting that you're seeing this uh, you know, upfront and and in you know, in person. The data from Barnes reveals something similar to that. Uh in 2022, there was a survey of US adults, and three out of four said, Yeah, I want to grow spiritually, but it's kind of ambiguous, right? I want to grow spiritually. And a similar number said, Yeah, I believe in a higher power. Um nearly half said that they're more open to God, you know, whatever that is, um, today more than they were before the pandemic. I want to start with this. Did you think the pandemic in some ways is part of the reason? I mean, you you live through, I mean, LA in the pandemic was a nightmare, you know, and and it was so brutal on people. Do you think that played a role in this?

SPEAKER_06 27:12

Oh, I think it played a role in everything. Um, even how burned out we are at times. It was just, you know. Uh no, but I think doing alpha after the pandemic, I think we saw an increasing desperation for um something that truly satisfies. I think authority figures were uh so undermined in uh credibility. Um, I think what people were looking toward as their hope was so uh discredited that I think people came away so disillusioned and tried to re-enter life, but there was still some pain of there's got to be more than this. And I do think there's been an increase in hunger of um, and so on the one hand, disillusionment, and on the other hand, hunger, therefore. And that was that accelerated. I think that was coming, but that certainly accelerated during COVID for here. I mean, lots of people lost their friends, they lost their jobs, they lost their sense. I mean, the the entertainment world has been decimated still after COVID here. Then the fires came last year. I think people they've had their foundations rocked. Many of them have fled to Nashville to try and find that again. Um, but certainly in our city, there's such a pain from the last five years that people have been looking to can something, can something actually remain secure when everything else vanished?

SPEAKER_03 28:42

When you encounter this, like are these um are people coming in even on a Sunday? I know we'll get to Alpha in a second, but like um, are there particular ministries in the church or events that you do midweek or Sundays itself, maybe where people are like, you know, that's their first point of entry, if you will? Like, where are they how are they expressing this?

SPEAKER_06 29:01

Yeah, I would say it's coming on a Sunday. Uh we do, we work really hard to um have Sundays that we would call up both kind of deep and wide, you know, for the exploring and the following. And so we create space where people can bring their friends and non-Christians can just show up and feel safe and feel helped in their exploration of faith in Jesus, and we overtly welcome them. So I do think there's a space. We're now aware that every Sunday someone's coming to the church for maybe the first time in a long time, or maybe the first time ever. We're very aware of that, and we never want to dumb down the gospel, we never want to um not feed the Christian. We we we love depth, we love great theology, we love great teaching. Yeah, yeah. But we do want to acknowledge, no, there's people here who have, and I say, I'm so thankful that you're here, and I also know what it's like to walk into a church very scared about what's gonna happen. So we just want to know that you're welcome, and we put them at ease because we know they're there, yeah. Um and they're searching.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

You know, Gare, the you would never say this about yourself, but I I have seen you minister and I've I've been to your church a few times, and it's an amazing thing that you're doing, and a lot of it emerges out of your own story and your own journey. And I I think in so many ways, God knew exactly what he was doing, calling you to LA and calling you to the West Coast. And and I wonder if you would share just a bit about um what is it about your story, your journey, the things you witnessed even in the UK that has prepared you for this, that God is making use of this. And I I I my hope here for the pastors and church leaders who are listening, you know, number one, for better or for worse, things that kind of begin uh out here on the West Coast tend to make their way through the rest of the country. You know, that old phrase, like California sneezes and America catches a cold, you know. So I I mean, for better or worse, like like people are people are seeing, people are seeing uh, oh, there's a revival and all this stuff. Great. But your word there about curious but cautious, still a little skeptical about church. But I've seen you do such an amazing job of you're disarming, but you don't, it's not because you're quote unquote watering down anything, but somehow you're able to connect with them and then speak to them. What is it about your story? Take your time here.

SPEAKER_06 31:27

Well, I'd say it's my wife and I. We met at a church called HTB, Holy Trinity Brompton in London. And Lizzie and I have very different backgrounds, but we have the same passion, which is fundamentally we care deeply, deeply for the lost. And we empathize with them, we love them. And that's for different reasons. I think firstly, I grew up in a very atheistic culture in the north of England. I was going to my I was going to church, but all my friends were non-Christians, would never go to church. And um I loved them. They were my best friends. And I was just, Lord, how I remember praying. How do we, how do I help them see find Jesus? That was a long prayer of mine. Um, and at the same time, I even knew then bringing them to church was not necessarily going to help them. In fact, I did bring them to church once, and it was just so off-putting in many ways that it was really painful. At the same time, Lizzie, my wife, grew up as a non-Christian completely, hadn't really understood anything about Jesus until a hairstylist at the age of 19 shared Jesus with her. And she had a radical conversion that night. She invited Jesus into her life and just had an encounter of Christ and um wanted to tell everyone about him and all of her world are non-Christians, right? And so when we both found our way to London in our late 20s, I was a lawyer and she was um working at HTB by then. And we both shared this passion for people to come to know Jesus. And we found ourselves at a church called HDB, which I found was the first church I'd ever attended that truly equipped the church to see their friends come to know Christ in a way that resonated with their friends, in a way that was culturally and socially and relationally accessible for their friends. I'd always grown up in a burden for evangelism, but terrible methodology, you know, preaching on the streets, door knocking, bait and switch questionnaires outside of nightclubs, all this type of thing.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

You know, those do you know those post-ins where you go, hey, what kind of drink did you have? I had a gentleman tonic. How many did you have? I had four, but did it really quench your thirst? You know, is there a thirst in your life that can't be quenched?

SPEAKER_04 33:47

You know, it was brutal. I think my church in Malaysia ran the same playbook, bro.

SPEAKER_08 33:53

It was horrible.

SPEAKER_06 33:54

So I it was brutal. Uh I went to HDB and I found two things. I found a deep, deep passion for the lost, but also a deep awareness of how we can reach them in a way that they're gonna love the process, they're gonna feel loved, they're gonna feel heard, they're gonna feel that we're not preaching at them, but listening and coming to them. And we just fell in love with that. We fell in love with kind of the humble charismatic that also was part of evangelism, that God wants to meet people, not just um be understood, but to be known by the non-Christian, to have a wonder, as John's gospel would say. Like, I wonder what that was. Yes. Um, and so I fell in love with HTB at that time. I thought the rest of my life, I'm going to just work in the law firm and bring my friends to Alpha, bring my colleagues to Alpha, bring my boss to Alpha every Wednesday. That was the rest of my life. Um, and really, this I mean, I forgot to say, but I came to HTB because I kind of came back to Christ on Alpha. I'd gone away for many years and been hurt by the church, been hurt by various things. I'd done some stupid things. Um, but I came back to a church that allowed me space to process my doubts, to um take my time in exploring Jesus. They loved me along the journey. I felt I'd done too much to ever come to church and survive judgment. I thought I'd burn up on arrival. So HTB became this place of radical grace for a person who is deeply ashamed of their past that I thought no one would ever accept me, but I found grace. I found a program called Alpha that allowed me to go on a journey to explore. Um, and Lizzie and I just thought, that's it. We're just this is it. You know, why would we do anything else but serve the Lord in in London? And we have all of our non-Christian friends who we love, and we're just gonna invite them to Alpha, and just that's our life. And so we moved to Switzerland after that. My job took me to Switzerland, and we just did the same thing there. We ran Alpha at the church. Um, I was bringing my friends from uh work for a big company there to Alpha, and so um HCB gave us a language that really matched my heart of loving the lost where they're at, yeah, yeah, and going to them in love and helping them belong before they believe, all these types of things. Yeah, just gave me the language for it. And ever since then, I've just been captivated by still the passion for the lost, but also a methodology that actually gives legs to that passion, yeah, as opposed to doing the methodologies that really kind of check the box from a religious duty perspective. So you've go home saying, I did it, yeah, but no one was helped, if we're honest. You know. Um, so anyway, that's a bit of it.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

And so we love doing that. You know what I hear in that, Garrett, is it's not just you, I mean, you you're right, it does give you a language for it, but it you've also you found a posture that you have internalized, and it's one you carry too, of humility, of genuine care and empathy, of curiosity. And I think sometimes it can be so um, you know, for pastors, for church leaders, we've forgotten what it's like to not know. Um, we've forgotten what it's like to only have our stereotypes or our false impressions about God in the church. We come in thinking God is angry, thinking God is, you know, out to get you, whatever, you know. And we've forgotten that. And so we it is so good for us to be around people who don't believe, who don't know. Uh you you you're like an alpha Jedi master, you know. You you lead these master classes, literally. Uh and I love it. People come from all over the world, literally, and and and I want you to talk about that in a moment. But um, I I love Alpha. I I was uh got to experience it maybe 10 or 11 years ago on a trip with Todd Proctor, our mutual friend, to uh the UK to HTB, introduced it at a church I was at in Colorado Springs, and then of course coming here to Rock Harbor now. It's a it's been a long time, you know, church that runs Alpha as well. And at Barna, we're big fans of Alpha because it's such a helpful mechanism to get people around a table and and start you know having conversations. Um could you talk about what Alpha has done to help the culture of evangelism at Vintage at your church?

SPEAKER_06 38:27

Well, I think um I don't think I could be a pastor without something like Alpha. I think, first of all, I think when I came to America uh 20 years ago to uh pastoring, I realized that I shared with the American church a deep, deep delight in discipleship and depth. And a few people were reacting maybe against the seeker-sensitive movement, and I'm not criticizing that, lots of good there, but some people were going, Oh, I just want depth. And that could either be better teaching, uh Tim Keller style, Holy Spirit stuff, Bethel style, or Candles and Formation, John Mark style, right? Whatever it may be, people were wanting, I want depth. Yeah, and that's a beautiful desire. Um, but with that, it's like, where does evangelism fit in that? Because we don't want our Sundays to be dumbed down, we want them to be rich and deep, and it's wonderful. Um, but I'm going, well, that's great. I want that too. But how are we going to reach the lost? Because those Sundays are now very difficult for non-Christians to penetrate and be helped. And so in Raleigh, we lived in Raleigh for four years, pastoring there. And I said, the only real way to reach the lost is to create a separate environment for the lost because they can't penetrate our Sundays and we don't want to dung them down. And so some will, maybe the dormant, the lapsed Christian, you know, but not the Buddhist down the road. They have no idea what's going on. So out of necessity, I said, this is why Alpha exists. It's because we take the evangelistic burden off a Sunday and put it on a Tuesday night. And we create both of these spaces where we can concentrate on the people coming, the Christians on a Sunday and the non-Christians on a Tuesday. And really the model in my mind is when Jesus sees Zacchaeus up a tree and he said, Hey, come down, he doesn't say to Zach, he doesn't say, Hey, come to church on Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Right.

SPEAKER_06 40:26

He says what? He says, I'm gonna come to your house. Where I can actually sit with you, you'll be honest, you'll be open, because it's your table, it's your space. I'm I'm gonna actually take the incarnation one step further and come to your house. And I think Alpha has created a space where the American church can do both of its desires really well. Disciple the following and help the exploring by creating uh almost our own Zacchaeus' house. And we call it Alpha. And we create a whole new vibe, a whole new environment to go, let's make it feel like a Zacchaeus' house. Let's let's get a venue uh that doesn't feel churchy, let's where they feel like they can be honest and open. And we find most of our city are in that category. We think most of our, you know, our evangelistic techniques or come to Sunday is really geared around the dormant, the lapsed Christian, but a huge percentage of our city are not in that category. They're just unchurched and other spiritualities. They'll never come to church. I know what that's like. I was petrified to go to church. And I would never go. I had a panic attack the first time I went to HDB. I thought I would blow up in flames. Um, but they created this other environment. So Lizzie and I are committed. I don't think we can do church without these two areas. We call them our two Sunday services. Sunday on Sunday and Sunday on Tuesday, because they're equally as important. And I therefore lead both of them. I go, this is the most important event of our week, our two Sunday services, Alpha and Sunday.

SPEAKER_07 42:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 42:14

And since there's since the get-go, um, what that's done in our church, it's first of all, it's relieved people that we're not dumbing down. They've gone, oh, okay, you could Alpha is away from our Sunday and our Bible studies. Great. Secondly, everyone's got a non-Christian friend that their heart breaks for.

SPEAKER_08 42:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 42:34

And they've all been struggling with, but where do I bring them? And I don't feel equipped to be that apologist, that friendship evangelist. They won't listen to me because it's my spouse or my kid, or and they're saying, Thank you. You know, we have now a place where we can bring them and they'll feel safe. And so our church, I think, it's given their evangelistic kind of fire, it's it's fueled their evangel evangelistic flame again. It has kind of gone out because they saw it as a threat to discipleship. Yeah. Now it's not a threat, it's actually something they can grow in themselves and get excited about. And so what it's done in our church is re-reigned evangelism and every and reignited that hope of oh, I can my friend, there's hope for my friend because I can I can bring them.

unknown 43:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:26

And then I think secondly, well, fifthly, whatever I am now, it's actually what it's also done, it's changed the church's posture towards the lost, away from animosity and fear of a culture war, you're taking away our rights, you're taking, you're putting doctrine into schools we don't agree with. It's actually by being in an alpha group with the lost, they suddenly realize oh my gosh, they've been through so much trauma. They hear their stories and they have empathy for them. And that they suddenly realize, well, no wonder, no wonder they're. They're making these decisions, or no wonder they're deciding to do these because listen to what they've been through. No one really comes to a faith position by reading a book. No. They come to a faith position mostly through pain, traumatic life experience. And it's when you sit and listen to those stories. What began as you're threatening our privileged uh position in society as a Christian to I'm so sorry what happened to you. And I just want to love you because I didn't realize you've been through so much, and that's probably why your heart is so hardened.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

I want to pause our conversation for a moment and say a special thank you to our partners at World Vision. World Vision has spent decades empowering the most vulnerable children around the world. And now, in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and our friends here at Varna, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Parenting the open generation offers nine practical principles to help you navigate the real challenges today's teens are facing and to support their faith formation in meaningful, grounded ways. Download Parenting the Open Generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Again, that's worldvision.org backslash resilient26. We've also linked to it in today's show notes. Okay, back to our conversation.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

You know, one of the things that people may not know, if they're not familiar with Alpha, is it's not an ap, it's not set up like an apologetics thing. You know, and and uh give us the quick sketch of like, you know, if someone were to do the eight-week version of it, what are some of the topics? And and then uh and then give us a quick um guide of how do you guide your table facilitators? Because I think that's the secret sauce is you're teaching people the art of curiosity instead of arguments and and that kind of stuff. So topics first and then the training thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:05

I think Alpha makes sense when you do one thing. You actually imagine your favorite non-Christian friend. You have to imagine your favorite non-Christian friend, and you go, Well, they don't want simplistic answers, they don't want Bible verses, they've maybe heard it all before, but they want to go on a journey of exploration themselves. And so Alpha goes, Well, why don't we create eight weeks where we do two things? We share what we believe, and then we want to hear what you believe. And I I have the privilege from the front, or some other people do, to share the beauty of Jesus, and then in the group, we want to hear what you believe. But the last thing you want is someone to teach and preach at you and give you simplistic answers in a group. And so we want to actually absolutely love and listen to what you have to say. And in fact, we're not gonna give you any answers in the group because you're waiting for that, and you'll only actually want to know about Jesus once you genuinely feel that we've wanted to know about you first. Yeah, and so the topics, what's interesting, the topics on Alpha are not the typical apologetic defeater questions because actually um what Alpha tapped into was um people firstly need to be drawn to Jesus, the beauty of Jesus before they actually approach those apologet apologetic questions with sincerity. If you're not drawn to Jesus by his beauty and his glory, and these talks talk about his love and why he went to the cross for you and what it's like to have a relationship with him, and he can guide your life, and oh my gosh, he sounds amazing. I wish it was true. That's what the Alpha talks do. And then they go, hang on a bit. I I wish it was true, but but what about violence in the Old Testament? But they're now approaching that question not from a gotcha, they're approaching it from a I wish Jesus was true. I kind of would like that to be true. Help me with this. So good. And so when people try and do alpha, they go, these aren't the questions that people are asking. They think they're asking all the apologetic questions. And if you do alpha and change the talks to apologetic questions, you'll have a very boring world religion class.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:24

And we don't so people want to see the beauty of Jesus and then be in a group where we go, but we want to hear what you feel. We want to hear your story. And so many times on Alpha, people say to me when they tell me their story of coming to faith, is I didn't trust a Christian. I thought you were just out of the target for your sales pitch. I didn't think you really cared about me. But actually, that I now actually trust you because you listened to me for eight weeks. You heard my story, and now I actually want to listen to what this Jesus guy is. But sometimes that takes eight weeks for people to actually go from hard to soft, yes, through being loved and not gotcha quick answers.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

It it's that's so well said, man. And I it's one of my favorite things about Alpha is yeah, week week one is like, is there more to this life? And then you know, the week two talk, who is Jesus? Right away. It's you're right, it's it's about are you drawn to this Jesus thing? And I when you when we train, you know, new volunteers or table hosts in it, it's the the the sentence stem that we're always training them when someone says something could be completely outlandish to go, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_05 49:35

It's so good, it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

I love it. I love it. And I mean that alone would change our our cultural engagement of just the tell me more, like that idea, you know. And now you do something that's unique at vintage, uh several things when you run alpha. And I don't want to get into all that. Everyone listening who's curious should come out to LA and go to one of your master classes. It's absolutely incredible. Um, but you you know, you you set the environment, it's a huge like party. There, there's a great, you know, uh food and beverage station. Of course, there's a meal and all this stuff. But at some point during the eight-week journey, you end up doing like an optional after-party kind of QA thing. What are you finding from the questions people are asking in this sort of optional QA thing?

SPEAKER_06 50:18

Yeah, well, just to before I get to that, just to retrace the steps a bit. I mean, we did Alpha and it was struggling. And we did Alpha to begin with, and after about five alphas, no one was coming. And we thought we'd give up. And we had that age-old belief, well, maybe alpha doesn't work in LA. Maybe our soil is too hard, and which every pastor thinks their soil is hard or harder, right? And so we went back to the drawing board and we said, why isn't our alpha working? And we identified, actually, when we were honest, about 30 or 40 barriers to why alpha wasn't thriving. And we said, you know what, we're gonna do the hard work in overcoming each of those barriers. We're not gonna change alpha. And when we overcame them, when we started to overcome them, we saw alpha go from zero to like four, five hundred that it is now. So, and that's non-Christians. We don't let Christians do alpha because there's no room. So one of them was one of the reasons why it wasn't working, particularly around why guests weren't sticking around, was because they were frustrated with the small group experience, which was um, I love the fact that we're all just talking about our stories and experiences, but eventually there came a point in like week three, week four, week five, when someone would go, okay, I actually do want to know. Actually, is there evidence for the resurrection? You know, or I actually do want to know this question. That what's the answer? And we're going, how interesting, we don't have the answers. Um, and they got frustrated. Yeah, and I I totally empathize with that. And actually, the alpha recipe is is to give people the answers, yeah, just not in the small group time. And historically that would be through books. Nikki would also go, we'll always go, look, here's a case for Christ, here's a book. And people, when I was doing alpha, way back in the 16th century, uh, it was it was we used to read, right? We would take those books home and read, but no one does in LA. So I said, well, we've got to help them do basically a live version of what Nikki would recommend as reading. And so by week four, I said, look, stick around afterwards. We have a pub here, stick around afterwards and have an open QA for about an hour from nine till ten o'clock at night, no question off limits. And what we found was um by then, by week four, their heart is soft because they're they've actually been they've actually seen the beauty of Jesus. They've been loved, they've seen that these Christians want to love them, so they're softer in their heart towards these questions. And oh my gosh, the questions are anything and everything, ranging from you know, violence in the Old Testament, the classics, to is manifestation the same thing as prayer? You know, how can Jesus be the Son of God if, you know, all this kind of stuff? Um, but also, you know, into deep trauma questions that the non-Christian goes, can Jesus truly heal me of um anxiety and depression? Wow. You know, they're they're looking at the beauty of Jesus and the stories of Jesus and they're starting to go, can this can he actually do something for me? Can he change my life? So you've got the whole gamut, and what we find, Glenn, is we actually have people, I see them in the audience like tears coming down because they're starting to realize what they thought was a insurmountable obstacle to following Jesus. Yes, these answers are lowering now, and they and literally I see tears going, I can do that, I can follow Jesus. Come on, man. You know, I love that, and it's th and it's such a beautiful moment. And we have lots of people born again who would go back to the group was amazing. I felt loved and safe and heard, and then I was helped in the talk and then really helped with my specific questions in the QA. Um, and so we teach people how to do all these things at the masterclass. Uh, but it's it's a long night, you know. I'm there till 10 o'clock and I got a stack of questions, like, you know. But man, Glenn, this is what pastoring is. This is any place you'd rather be. I don't know. When I'm up there with the microphone and the stack of index cards, yeah, and I'm reading them going, This is this is why we trained, this is why we went to Semno, this is why we're called to ministry right here.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

This is you're so inspiring to me, Gere. I came back from our time together, you know, overseas and was talking to our team, and I'm like, man, I want to be around Alpha Moore. You know, I at the current moment, I I come maybe once or twice. I do one of the talks and hang around. And um, after hearing you this QA thing, I'm like, man, I want to be part of that. I want to do that. You'd be amazing at it. You'd be brilliant. I don't know if I would or not, but I I know I would love it. I and I think I think just knowing the questions people are asking. And I think this this is the thing for for so many of us in church ministry. We I said this earlier. We get so insulated by church ministry stuff and all the and I I love it. I love strategy, I love it, it's all great. At the same time, if we are not out there with the real shifts, we we can talk all we want about the data and the shifts or whatever in culture, but man, you gotta hear real stories, you gotta look people in the eye and hear their pain. So I love that you're doing that.

SPEAKER_06 55:40

And I think it's a real gift in passing, because let's be honest. We can't we don't have a lot of time to just to walk around the streets of Costa Mesa or Los Angeles, and but you get an intensive, rapid um awareness of what the culture is doing through an alpha group. Yep. Because you've got 10 non-Christians just being raw and honest, and you're there going, This is this is the best exegetical learning of our culture I could possibly. And it changes every three years. I've noticed it changes. The questions that people ask, the struggles that people ask, there's been there are subtle shifts happening. And it's fascinating to see them. That informs then everything, informs our preaching on Sunday. It informs everything.

SPEAKER_03 56:26

100%, man. Okay, so the last thing I want to get to is there's this, there's a stat that Barna found in some research on Gen Z, uh Gen Z teens. So this would be, you know, on the tail end here. Of course, I know younger teens are more in alpha now, Gen Alpha Gen Alpha, not to be confused with this alpha ministry. But um, 83% of Gen Z teens, Christian Gen Gen Z teens, teens, said um, letting your actions speak rather than using words to explain your faith to someone is more likely to create a positive response among non-believers. And then half of them actually believe that counts as an act of evangelism. Now, I I think at one level I have I think I know where this is coming from. They're reacting to what you described earlier as the questionnaire thing, the if you died tonight, the real obnoxious what they think of when they think of evangelism is a sales pitch and a and a heaven or hell kind of you know, fearful thing. Um, so I understand that impulse, but man, you're your even your description about the QA thing, people actually do want answers. So, how would you gently challenge some of the younger folks to go, man, their words might be important here?

SPEAKER_06 57:36

Well, yes, that age old adage, we all grew up with this. I think is you know, preach the gospel, use words if you have to, right? And I had that when I was 15. Yeah, and so it's the same problem all the time, right? It's um we want people to hear the gospel and experience the gospel, and one without the other is incomplete. And I say to people, look, I was in, I was not a pastor for I was in a normal job, like for 12 years, and yeah, you have to be careful that you're not there to preach at your colleague, you're not there to bring, but you are there to be a compelling curiosity through your actions, and they can connect the dots with you as a Christian. So those are the two things that your task is. They know you're a Christian, and they connect the dot of this is why you are the way you are, in your compelling kind of if you follow Jesus faithfully around non-Christians, you blow them away because the way of Jesus in the world is is so countercultural. But they have to connect the dots that you're a Christian, and so I would say to people, look, the easiest thing in the world is going on Monday morning when people say, Hey, how's your weekend? This is what I would do every every Monday. I hope I was logging for the question. Hey, how's how how's your weekend, go? It's like, brilliant. Went to the pub Friday night, um, Saturday morning, woke up late, watched the rugby, um, then went out for lunch. Uh, went to a club. I used to club a lot, went to a club uh Saturday night, uh, went to church on Sunday. And I'll tell you what, I know you don't believe in God or anything, but I gotta say, I think I I think I had a profound moment with God on Sunday. It rocked me, actually. But then I went for lunch, and then I went for lunch, and then and then that last night was just a quiet night. You know, I'm literally, I'm not preaching. Amazing. No, I'm being I'm being authentic because they asked me a question. I'm not hiding what God did in my in my life because they asked me. I'm not using it as a door to then preach at them for 10 minutes. No, just being authentic. Yeah, you know, if someone says, Hey Gare, how was you know Thursday? How are you? You go, man, I'm really struggling today. You know, a pastor who I really respect, um, you know, fell and he had an affair and it devastated his family. And it makes me really angry because people will now I get really angry at that because that's not the way of Jesus. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, how was your night? You know, it's I'm not I'm not I'm just being authentic.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

I love that, man. You just yeah, you're not screening out a very real part of your life. So, so step one, have an integrated faith in your life.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:15

Have an integrated faith vocally and indeed. Vocal and indeed, be fully integrated. Yeah, you're not trying to preach at them. And then what I would pray for, Lord, all my friends will eventually actually go through a trial, a trauma, or a tension in their life where they'll be looking for something more, and I want them to go, I wonder actually, Gare, can I take you for coffee? And I had so many people at work who'd go, Gare, can I take you for coffee? And it's like, my grandma died. I wish I had your faith. You know, uh, I don't know what to do. Or, Gare, I had lots of people like my grandma died, my mom died, and it was like, Can you help me with Bible verses at the funeral? And so often that would start their journey, but they knew where to go, they respected my lifestyle. Um, I would never lie at work, I would always, you know, all this kind of thing. They bought me a Jesus action figure because I was a I was a Christian ill on the on the floor. Um but I think it's a matter of being fully integrated, not hiding, but not trying to use opportunities to preach it, people.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:24

Dude, that's that is incredible. And your three T's there on this podcast, people know we we love alliteration. So a trial, trauma, and attention. I'm that that I'm gonna carry that because you're right. You just kind of have that consistency. So it to the Gen Z impulse of like living is yes, yes, and it's it's a yes and. Okay, we've we we man, I could talk to you for hours, but we've got to land this plane. Gare, you are an Arsenal fan, and uh congrats on winning the league. Well, first of all, you won't listen to the league. You won the league. I'm a Man United fan. I have not been able to watch games very much, and we're a sorry team at the moment. Well, with how bad you are, it's very hard to watch your games. Yeah, that's also true. Fair. I mean, I opened myself up for that. Um now now, Gare, tell us, tell our listeners who may not be as tuned into world soccer. Because you won the league, you know, you played in the UEFA Champions League, you made it to the UEFA UEFA Champions Final, which is kind of like the Super Bowl of Super Bowls, you know. You played Paris Saint Saint-Germain, you know, PSG. And and what what what happened in that game?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:26

Oh man, my son and I were at a pub and we're watching it in LA with about 400 other people. Um, but Arsenal brought their best effort to defeat one of the best attacking teams we've seen. And so all we we we brought our defensive block. We thought, you know what, we happen to score after six minutes. Well, you went up early, you went up early. We scored after six minutes through a rebound, and then we were able to an amazing shot by Havertz. But then we thought, let's hold on to it, let's be defensive. I I I just think if you're ever defensive, you're holding your breath, and eventually they scored, and eventually we lost. So that holding your breath and being defensive is always a dangerous tactic. You know where I'm going, Gere.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

I know we know where I'm going. So this is the thing is sometimes we share this data of people being open to God, and uh, you maybe there's reports for headlines of revival, Gen Z. That's great, but to me, the job is far from done. Far from done. And so I I what I love about this conversation with you, Gere, is we want to be offensive, but not offensive. You know, stay on stay on the offense, but without being offensive, you know. Yes. And there is a way to kind of stay, we've got more ground to take. There are people that are in pain, there are people that are lost, there are people that are waiting for this. And so that we should not congratulate ourselves and go, oh, look at this, we've turned the tide. Far from it. And evangelism needs to be on the forefront of our churches. So I would just love if you would close us in prayer, pray over our listeners that we would be inspired with fresh boldness, fresh strategy, fresh humility to meet uh the world around us.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:56

Yeah, Amen. Amen. All right, let's pray. So, Lord, I thank you that you have called each and every one of us to share your love with those around us. And Father, we um we remember Acts 16 when Paul had a vision of man of Macedonia begging for help. And Father, I thank you that you don't move us out of obligation or religious duty, but you break our heart for those who are lost. That you've you never actually said to Paul, go to Macedonia. You showed him a man begging for help, and that captured his heart. So, Lord, I pray each and every one of us would again have a broken heart for the lost around us. That we would remember what it was like not to know Jesus, that we would walk the streets around our churches and look at the drawn curtains and the closed doors and ask, Lord, remind us of what's happening behind those doors, behind those curtains. Let us not just put our noise-cancelling headphones in and just sing worship songs, but Lord, let us hear the cries of the lost. Break our hearts. And Lord, I know that when you break our hearts, we're we're we're a hostage to those cries. And give us give us practical ways that we can then follow those cries and bring the gospel to those around us, whether it be Alpha or something else. Lord, help us with wisdom what it means to love well those in our city who are desperately trying to do the best in life without you. So, Lord, break our hearts, fill us with your Holy Spirit, that we may actually bring your love and your truth and your gospel to those in our city.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

In your name. Amen. Amen. Amen. So good to talk to you, my friend. Thank you for that. Bless you, mate. Love you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Well, thanks for joining us for the Resilient Pastor Podcast. If this conversation encouraged you, share it with a fellow pastor or leader. You can find more Barna research and resources at Barna.com. And again, thank you to one of our partners, World Vision. Together, in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and the Barna team, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient twenty six. Well, thanks for watching and listening to the resilient pastor podcast, and we will see you next season.