73 | Stewarding Authority & Creating a Culture of Feedback

In this host-led episode, Rich Villodas, Sharon Miller, and Glenn Packiam explore what it means to steward authority well in pastoral leadership. From the subtle weight of a pastor’s words to the challenge of receiving honest feedback, they unpack how influence shapes church culture—often more than leaders realize.

Together, they discuss why feedback is so difficult to give (and receive), how insecurity can distort power dynamics, and what it looks like to create a culture where trust, honesty, and accountability can grow. They also share practical insights on building healthy leadership structures, inviting input from teams, and knowing when to lead with clarity and conviction.

• Download Parenting the Open Generation at worldvision.org/resilient26. 
• Watch this episode on Barna’s YouTube Channel.
• View all Resilient Pastor podcast episodes on our podcast page.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome again to the Resilient Pastor Podcast, where we help pastors lead with wisdom, hope, and courage in a changing world. I'm Rich Velotis, and this podcast is part of Barna's mission to encourage and equip pastors to be resilient spiritually, emotionally, and in their leadership. And together, we'll explore new research and real conversations to help you understand the times and to know what to do. If you're not already doing so, go to Barna.com and sign up for the free Barna email to access the latest Barna articles, resources, and special discount offers. I'm joined, as always, by my co-hosts Sharon and Glenn. Listen, everyone. First of all, how are you doing? Doing all right?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Good. Good.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Now listen to this. Uh, for the first time in my life, I experienced Texas barbecue. Uh, you know, as a New Yorker, um, you know, we have our pizza, we have our our bagels, we have our coffee. Uh, but Texas Barbecue, uh, I went to a spot called Terry Black's.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

And um where they're giving stuff like by half the pound, half a pound, pound. I I had it around lunchtime. I don't think I ate for two days because of how just and then there was another spot called is it was like a Michelin, which is a new thing I I heard about barbecue restaurants being rated on the with Michelin stars and all that there. But there's this other spot here, I I gotta get the name, it's called Panther City Barbecue in Fort Worth. And guys, I mean, have you enjoyed Texas barbecue in the past? I mean, I I'm I'm amazed. I'm amazed. How about you guys?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

I I I definitely have, uh Rich. And it was maybe last year. I was doing a thing at at Truett Seminary at Baylor at Waco, and they took me to Terry Black's, and it was fantastic. It's it's fantastic. No, it's it's I've not been. Did you have the cream corn and all that as well, or no? Oh, you have to. You have to have the cream corn and and and all of that. And and you know, that's like your fat intake for the month, basically. So, you know, that's you pray, you pray for your arteries after that. But yes, I I enjoyed it. How about uh Sharon? I mean, you're in North Carolina, you you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Well, so that's the thing, is I I have actually not tried Texas barbecue. And I don't fully understand like what is distinctive about it. But before you tell me, I have to share a story.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Wait, wait, let me let me explain this to Rich real quick. Rich, there is Carolina barbecue, there's Kansas City barbecue, and there's Texas barbecue. I think I think I'm getting this right. And Carolina barbecue, the sauce is more vinegary. It's a little more watery, a little more vinegar.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Well, there's actually different types of sauce in North Carolina as well. Oh, okay. And so I but but uh several years ago, I was traveling, I go to Texas a lot, and I was going through the TSA pre-check line at the Austin airport. And the security guy, he looks at my driver's license, he sees that I am from North Carolina. And he says, you know, what's the best food in North Carolina? And I looked at him and I said, barbecue. And he looks back at me and he goes, ma'am, you're in Texas.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

I was like, shots fired. Shots fired. So I, but I've never, like, whenever I go to Texas, I just get text mags. And so I've actually, what is distinctive about Texas barbecue?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Wait, wait, wait. So did he let you through TSA or was he like, no?

SPEAKER_03 3:54

He did, but I mean, with like a lot of shade. So what is special about Texas barbecue?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

No, I have nothing to compare. I mean, I once had it at South Carolina in Charleston, which was amazing, but I I'm not the right person to ask. I mean, if you're asking me to write a pizza or a bagel, I mean, I'll tell you, but I have nothing to compare it to. It was, it was phenomenal. It was phenomenal. It's yeah, but how do you explain it? I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

I, you know, we listen, if I attempt this, we're gonna get some great response from our listeners. In fact, let's do this. Listeners, please tell us, tell us what is distinctive about this. I if I were to, my amateur-ish kind of I I think Texas barbecue is a lot more of that honey glaze. Um uh you you you the it's the it's the sauces.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

I mean it it is smoked, but it may be part pulled pulled pork?

SPEAKER_00 4:45

No, it's brisket. It's brisket. It's brisket. Wow. Okay, it's brisket. And it is amazing. They they've had these giant smokers, Terry Black's, these giant smokers, you can go and see it, and it sits in there for hours and hours. I mean, I'm talking like I've smoked the brisket at home. I do that uh, you know, every maybe once a year or whatever. It that's a 12, 14-hour thing. These guys are smoking it for like 24 hours. It's low, slow charcoal, you you know, the wood. So there's something about maybe it's something about the wood, it's something about the rub. I want to say uh Texas barbecue is basically a salt and pepper rub, and then they the sauces are added later.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

I wonder too if it's a brisket, if that's because up here, like primarily it's it's pork. And so I wonder Texas is like cattle country and North Carolina is hogs.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Well, there you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

It was the and it was the cowboy hats, too. I think that I mean the the hats were everywhere. And so that must be the secret sauce, as we say in New York. You know, uh it was the cowboy hats.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Is what I'm hearing. You do need to go to Terry Blacks.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yep, yep. In fact, we'd like an endorsement right now. This episode is brought to you by Terry Black.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Sorry. Brother Black, uh, indeed here. Well, all right. Well, uh, I'm looking forward to the next experience with Texas Barbecue. But in the meantime, uh before we get into today's conversation, we want to thank one of our partners, World Vision. Uh, together in partnership with Daniel Strickland, 10x10, and the Barna team, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org backslash uh slash or is it backslash? Always forget, but it's uh slash resilient26. We'll figure it out as we go here. All right. Well, we're gonna have a great conversation. It's just the three of us having a conversation today. We are the hosts and we are the guests. Come on. And so we are uh we've got two hats on today. And listen, there's a quiet tension in pastoral leadership that we don't always name. And, you know, pastors are entrusted with real influence, real power, spiritual authority, uh, our words, our advice, our presence, you know, it shapes people's lives in some really significant ways. And at the same time, I think that has a way of uh making our souls and our bodies pretty weary because of the amount of power that's entrusted to our care. And so there's a stat regarding um, you know, pastors in leadership and who's who's stepping down from pastoral leadership. Barnes' latest research shows that nearly one in four pastors, 24%, uh, that have seriously considered leaving ministry in the past year. Now, we don't know all of the situations behind that statistic. Yet what we're gonna talk about today, you you have to acknowledge that there's some reason related to power and not just misuse of power, but the weight of power and influence that we carry. So that's where we're gonna go today. Um, Glenn, why don't you just frame our time for a moment then? When you think about the weight of ministry and power and influence, uh just open up with some thoughts that can maybe frame our time today.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Well, I mean, I think all of us to some degree are a little uncomfortable with how much uh impact our lives make on others. And I say uncomfortable. Influence feels good. You're like, yeah, great, I can influence you, I can lead you. But sometimes the word impact maybe is stronger. It feels like it, it makes an indent, you know. And I think about that as a father, I think as parents, you know, when you have kids, your kids will hang on to certain phrases you said or certain behaviors you had, and they go, Oh my gosh, dad, you always, you know. And I that's it's it's a tricky thing. I I have one daughter who's married, another who's out of the house and in college, and two that are at home. So I think about the parallel there. And then as pastors, you know, coming here to Rock Harbor has been such a beautiful gift, and we've watched the Lord work such a beautiful story of redemption. And you also are keenly aware when people look you in the eyes and go, I'm so glad you're here, or thank you. And so even the voice of praise, words of praise or gratitude, I sometimes I confess I hear that as pressure, as not from not because they mean to, but rather maybe I hear the weight behind those words of like, your life has has changed the story for our family, for our beloved church, for our community, you know. I mean, how do you experience that, Sharon? I'm sure as as the church has grown and people are are trusting you. I mean, how do you feel that way?

SPEAKER_03 9:28

You know, I I think we have talked about this at some point before, but for me was recognizing that my words all carry a hundred pounds of extra freight. And so even, you know, gentle feedback, what I think is a nudge can feel like a shove. And early on, because I am very direct, I just come at a thing. And so I would just kind of devastate our staff or leaders. Like if I was, you know, unhappy about something or frustrated about how something had gone. And I'm not losing it. I'm not losing my temper, I'm not calling names, I'm not making accusations, I'm not laying blame, but even just my displeasure felt very heavy. It felt like a failure to our staff. And so I have really had to reckon with how do we, and we talked about this in our conversation about worship as well, is like, how do you deliver critical feedback in a way that that can be received without being overly discouraging? And so for me, that that is definitely a tension that I've had to learn to navigate. Like, how do I go into a situation and not use you statements, for example, or why statements, things like that that feel especially pointed to the person on the other end.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

I mean, Rich, when you took over from Pete, did you feel a little bit of like the transference of that? Like, okay, you know, you are now given an outsized sort of sense of influence. Or, or what was that? You know, I know that was a long time ago now, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

You know, on some level, yes. On another, no. Uh, I did not realize um, I could not appreciate the amount of power that was being entrusted to my care um experientially. It was really until I realized how my words were impacting people uh socially, uh politically. So I would make assumptions, for example, about a political thing, and I'd say something without any kind of discernment from the pulpit uh or any kind of framing. And folks would take that and be very either wounded by what I say, or you know what, I'm the best thing in the world because I just said something that they already agreed with. Uh so Pete, my predecessor, you know, he wrote a wonderful book, a chapter in his book, Emotionally Healthy Leader, on power and wise boundaries. And um, maybe a little later in our conversation, I'll refer to some of that because I think he offers some really good framework for some things. But he would consistently tell me, Rich, you have so much power. Now, I was 32, 33 years old when I was stepping into this role. I'm gonna be 47 now. Uh, and so those 15 years between where I'm at right now, which is why sometimes I wonder, what in the world were they doing, giving me this level of leadership at 32 and 33? I think the only reason I mean, I wouldn't have, Rich.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

I wouldn't have.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

I think the only reason it worked was because it was that we had a very seasoned board. And because in my situation, Pete was gonna remain in a capacity uh where there was clear boundaries, but he was gonna be uh a mentor. He was gonna be um someone I can look to. But it took a number of years for me to really appreciate the weight of my presence and my words, and I think I hurt some people along the way.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

You know, we did a whole episode on boards and elders, and it was one of the most popular episodes of the season already. I mean, it's just people resonate with that. And so I wonder if we wanted if we could just double-click on that beyond boards and just even on the idea of structure. Because you alluded to this, Rich. You're like, you said, okay, I had the predecessor was around, and then you had a board, but then of course there's a staff. And Sharon, you know, as as you guys have built up, you you know, you've got layers now in the organization. And when I talk to either church planters or people who are doing a turnaround of a church, there's always a little kind of um tipping point when you add a layer in the org chart, you know, and you go, okay, we've gone from now I lead everyone to I lead some, and then you know. So I I think, but that's also part of stewarding influence. And I I wonder if it'd be helpful just to pause and go and double-click on this idea of structure as it relates to to dispersing the weight or dispersing the power. Maybe Sharon, you start, share a little bit about the structure of your church and how power is shared, not shared, dispersed, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah, so we just over a year ago, we instituted our first ever elder board. And so we are still very much implementing that in a lot of ways. Like our staff is still developing a trust relationship with the elder board. We realized pretty quickly that that trust, we have like a high trust culture in our staff and how important that is for that relational equity. And so we have been working on building those, those ties, building that trust between them. And so I don't think we have totally reached that point yet where we have shifted from it being me and Ike to being elder led. I think I think that's actually gonna be a very slow mindset shift amongst our people. But that is, you know, one layer that we have. And then we also have, we've we've talked about this before as well. We do performance reviews. We have twice a year we do uh one once a year we do a 360 review, once a year we do supervisor review. But one question I actually do have for you guys in terms of getting feedback on how you are throwing your weight around is actually easier said than done. Like you would hope that the performance review that people would be honest, but in reality, and I think they talked about this in what was that book you recommended about Pixar? What was it called?

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Creativity Inc.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Yes, in that book, they talked about how difficult it was to get true honest feedback that that they were trying so hard to get it and and still could not, at the end of the day, always get true honest feedback. And so one of the things that we have also just been talking about, we just invited our executive director into more of like an executive team kind of structure on the org chart where it's not just me and Ike at the top making decisions, but we're sort of making decisions together. And because our executive director is not the boss, I do know that our staff sometimes feels more comfortable sharing things with her that they wouldn't share with us. And so we've been, but we've been trying to discern, and I would love to hear your feedback on this because we want honest feedback, but at the same time, we would prefer to have it directly so it's not triangulated. Yeah, yeah. But also recognizing it can be really scary to be honest with your boss. And so I'm curious how you guys have have navigated that dynamic, how how power prevents you from hearing the truth.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Yeah, I'll offer a few things here because and and I do want to I'm gonna come back to the structure piece because I think um there's some really practical things that we need to hold on to. And there's three layers of structure that I want to come back to in a minute here. Uh, but in terms of that environment, it's it's really hard to understand why people are afraid to approach leadership. Some of it is some of it is cultural. Um, so you know, a third, uh, you know, New Life is very diverse. Uh a third of our church is pan-Asian, uh, in which there is so much deference towards those in leadership. Now, this doesn't describe every person from South Asia or East Asia or across the board there. But generally speaking, there is uh tons of deference given to the pastor. Uh, you know, many have a hard time calling me rich. Uh, they want to, it's pastor rich uh all the time there. And so some of it is just cultural, some of it is personality, some of it is history. And so uh there's lots of layers as to why folks have a hard time. We can't control that. However, what we can control as those who are carrying the most amount of um power in this respect, where people are seeing us in that way, we can create an environment where uh that feedback is um uh welcomed, encouraged, normalized. Uh, you know, at New Life, we use a lot of language out of the emotionally healthy stuff that we've done over the years around uh, you know, puzzles or curiosities. Um and so when you when you empower people with language and structures uh in order to have these conversations, that that goes a long way. But it requires the pastor uh to create an environment where that feedback is welcomed. And I've mentioned over the years how, you know, in a sermon, I would say, hey, we're going to uh give me some feedback or how can I do this better? Uh we've used Glenn's even better, Glenn, I've just been I've attributed EBIs just to you. So as Glenn Pacquiaum created the EBI Even Better Ifs. So I don't know who created it, but it's now yours. Congratulations, Glenn. Wonderful. Uh whenever I use it in a book, I'm gonna go. As Glen, as the wise Glenn Pacquiaum said, there's a phrase called EBIs uh that we've been using uh over the years here. But I think it's my responsibility to encourage, hey, can you can I can you push back against me? Is there anything that you see differently that I think I need to hear? And that, friends, emerges out of a particular capacity of the leader to be humble, to be open, to be curious. And as I've said before, listen, if you can create that environment within yourself, then everyone uh can receive feedback. Everyone can receive pushback. Uh what do you hear with that, Glenn? Is that something you're listening?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

This is so good. I'm I'm I'm saying amen and wanting to to uh affirm it, underline it with a few um reflections of my own, but then I want to get back to you on the structure thing. But I I think, you know, Sharon, there there is a built-in cost to giving feedback regardless of the culture. I mean, um, for sure, uh Asian cultures are honor, shame, and so there's a high deference culture there. That is for sure true. But I think even in church cultures, Pentecostal, charismatic, you know, I have for for all of my ministry career, I have to instructed people not to address me as Pastor Glenn. And people do it. And I say, please don't, because pastor is not a title, it's a job description, you know. Uh it's more of a verb than a noun, and I prefer it that way, you know, and so and uh and and and they are there are those are little ways of closing the gap. But I think I would say humility, accessibility, and proximity are ways that you you make the cost of giving feedback lower. Um so I I invite it almost constantly. Like after I get off stage at the 8 a.m. service, I'll gather a few people, hey, any notes for me? You know, that could be our comms director, that could be an associate pastor, that could be the worship leader, or just any notes for me. I can make some tweaks for the next few services. Um, but I'll walk out of a meeting and I'll turn to Kit or to Ben or someone else like, hey, how do you how do you think I handle that? You know? And they go, Yeah, you seem a little reactive on that one, you know. I mean, recently I had um a guy who oversees our Sundays go, hey, you debriefed that. He's like, just that was a little strong. You might have, you might have, you know, discouraged someone by the way you came on there. I was like, oh, okay. Or I had one where um Ben he came to me and he said, Hey, there's someone on our team that I think it'd be he told me who it was. He's like, she might benefit from a conversation with you because you had kind of mentioned the possibility of her taking on this responsibility. She got excited about it and then you changed your mind and and uh gave it to somebody else. He's like, no big deal. She's not offended, but it might be helpful if you just went back to her and go, I'm so sorry, I never closed the loop. I went and and so I did. It took me two minutes to have that follow-up combo. The other team member was like, Wow, thank you for doing that. I didn't need that. So I think we demonstrate humility and accessibility and proximity, not only physically by being around, but by just inviting it and then helping people know where those moments of feedback are. Nobody ever wants to raise their hand to offer feedback. That is the most costly way to offer feedback, is to say, can I talk to you about something? That is so costly. So lower the cost of giving feedback by inviting it for them or setting up recurring meetings where they can. All right, Rich, structure.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

I mean, just before structure, you know, I want to help for folks who are going to start doing this for the first time, and it feels really scary to start saying, hey, what do you think about that? Or push back, or uh, do you have a can you help me strengthen this idea? I just want to say, I've been doing this for a number of years, and even when I do it, it's still difficult. And so after the 9 a.m. service, I meet with whoever member of our preaching team is in the service. And between services, it's kind of like a five-minute, we we find a small room and just like, hey, all right, is there anything I can do to strengthen this? Or, or as Glenn says, EBIs. We were using the E BIs, Glenn's phrase. And every time they start they start talking, I brace my internally, I'm bracing myself. Now on the outside, I'm just like, I'm smiling. And then I've been going, okay, here we go. What are they gonna say here? And and they say, you know what? I wonder if you would shift this or move this up, or I'm not sure that's needed. But I just want to know the emotional reality of it. I have not achieved any kind of like a status of, all right, tell me what you have, and I'm totally fine with it. There's always just like uh embracing myself on some level. So just to normalize that there. In terms of structure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

We we should caveat this also. I have had my chairman of the board advise me don't ask for too many opinions from the board. So this is there's there's a weird dynamic here. When you're going up the power chain, you don't need to invite too much feedback because people are very helpful, happy to take as much power as you will give them. You know, I mean, I even one time was like, guys, do you think we should cancel this program? And they go, uh-uh, we're not voting on that. We do not decide what programs you run, you know. So be careful when you're asking too much feedback up. And I get never, I have a friend who just took over church, and he tells me the things he's asking his board to weigh in on. I'm like, bro, you be careful. You cannot take that back from them once you start asking them. But I do think you work harder with the down the power chain because people are reluctant to go up.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Want to pause our conversation for a moment and say a special thank you to our partners at World Vision. World Vision has spent decades empowering the most vulnerable children around the world. And now, in partnership with Daniel Shrickland, 10x10, and our friends here at Barna, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Parenting the Open Generation opens offers nine practical principles to help you navigate the real challenges today's teens are facing and to support their faith formation in meaningful, grounded ways. Download ParentingThe Open Generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Again, that's worldvision.org backslash resilient twenty-six. We've also linked it in today's show notes. Okay, back to our conversation. Yeah. Yeah, good word. I'll just say this in terms of structure and then Sharon, I wonder how um what are you discovering in your your younger church? Um, you know, there are three aspects to it uh for us here. We have the board, we have our lead team, and then we have outside consultants that come in. And so I'll just um the board is, you know, we meet the first, uh second Tuesday, uh Wednesday of each month. And it is a space where I am submitting. In fact, just yesterday, at the time of this recording, I submitted my monthly report. Uh, how what's going on in my own life? Um, areas that I need prayer, uh, areas that we might need some support. So, even like more of the moments of vulnerability as the pastor, where I'm saying, here, these are some spaces where uh I might need some prayer support or just need some space to process. Uh, these are some of the puzzles I'm carrying, some of the hopes that I have. So, just even that space, uh, and then reporting to the board in that way, just uh creates an environment of uh honesty, of accessibility, all of Glenn's words, of proximity. And so just that board level there has been uh super helpful. Then our lead team, uh, the lead team is where I recognize again the power of if you know, hey guys, we should do this here. And if lots of people just say, fine, but because we've instituted a team where we're going to now, in that kind of working genius model, there's some spaces for wonder and invention and discernment. But, you know, help me to craft this. And this is the environment where I just I have so many blind spots and I don't see everything. I don't see what's going on on the ground, how my impact, how my decision today is going to impact what's happening in the kids' ministry or in the parking ministry or whatever it might be there. And so that lead team just helps to help me to see all my gaps in blind spots. But the third aspect of it is just a consultant. And over the years, uh, we we've brought in a consultant every single year, uh, sometimes twice a year, uh, because there's someone coming in from the outside who's able, who who does not, who's not emotionally invested, who can ask the questions, who people feel good trust with, like they can, you know, and we have because we've used a similar consultant over the years, those three, it's not exhaustive, it's not comprehensive, but those three layers have really, I think, protected our church from me in terms of, hey, we're rich is gonna make a decision and we're just gonna go for it, and we're not gonna recognize the implications of all that. And so, um, Sharon, I wonder if there's anything that you're discerning or discovering in terms of like any structure. And then Glenn, what would you say about your own structure uh that might be similar or even dissimilar to that?

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Yeah, I mean, we have pretty similar structures and practices. I am surprised. That's interesting that you're bringing consultant every year. We just brought in a consultant last year, I guess it's been a year and a half now, when we were coming up on year seven, we brought in Unstuck to help us identify gaps, areas of growth. We've we felt like it was a good time to do a really comprehensive assessment. And it was kind of their takeaway produced a lot of work for us. And so I think what you're describing is probably less intense, I would imagine. But I'm curious, like, what are they, what is the consultant specifically consulting on? Like, or is it the same thing every year?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

No, for our in our in our case here, um, it shifts year by year. So our executive team, our lead team, we're we're narrowing down here at areas where we find ourselves you know stuck or find ourselves needing some clarity. Uh, sometimes it's just a full um, hey, where we're at right now, let's have a, you know, one of those simple right, wrong, missing, confusing conversations. And then what's gonna come to the surface in terms of the core areas that we really need to be paying attention to uh just as a leadership team. And so sometimes it's pretty pointed. Sometimes it's hey, we're gonna take some time to discern what does the team, what is the team sensing is the most important. So it's varied over the years for sure.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, so we we're doing a lot of the same things, but I I appreciate Rich you sharing what you said about how you brace yourself for that feedback because one of the one of the dynamics here, and I posted about this somewhat recently on social media, this is why insecurity and power are such a dangerous combination, is that what happens when you are insecure is you become blind to that power dynamic. Like instead of recognizing I am the one with power standing over this person, your insecurity causes you to feel like, no, they're the one with power standing over me. And the thing that actually prompted that post was I was talking to a friend who she doesn't work in the church world at all. It's it's much more like social work. But her boss had singled her out in a meeting and had really come down hard on her after she had given some pretty like sincere feedback. And after that, on the the back side of that, she wanted to have another meeting to kind of follow up and bring in like other leaders to explain why it was inappropriate for this person to give feedback to her boss. And I as I was listening to all this, I was thinking this is a leader who is deeply insecure and does not understand the enormous risk that it took for her employee to give this very sincere feedback. And so rather than recognize that the employee is the vulnerable one, the employee is the one who can be fired. This insecure leader is now bringing in, you know, the canons essentially to fire back at this employee. And that is the danger of mixing insecurity with power, where we we and I've felt this where when you get criticized by your staff or by volunteers or people in the church, you feel small and you feel fragile and you feel vulnerable. And so the temptation is to arm up and to protect yourself and to circle the wagons instead of realizing, no, I am the one with the power, even if I don't feel that way. And if I don't behave like I am the one with the power, then I'm gonna drop the hammer on them and potentially damage their relationship with church. And so to even just be able to name that rich, I think is really important for us to all admit that to some degree, like this is really hard. And we need to be honest about the vulnerability of asking for feedback so that we cannot react out of that place.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

That's so good, Sharon. And that that's the whole idea of culture. You know, we're talking about structure, which is good. Uh, you know, I want to come to the question of processes that to get real practical as well. But you're naming something that is deeper than that, and that is the culture, which for better or for worse rises and falls on the health of the leader. You know, so if the leader is insecure, you might have all the right structures, but you will inhabit those structures with an edge of insecurity, you know. I mean, this is as old as Saul and Samuel, right? He had the structure of a prophet that's supposed to rebuke the king and all stuff, you know. Insecure leader is just gonna sabotage all of that. So that's so profound. And I remember when you posted that, I just thought that, man, that that is it. The leader flips the power dynamic and thinks the person giving him feedback is actually more powerful, which again is the Saul dynamic. He's tall, but he is small in his own eyes, Samuel says. You are you are little in your own eyes. And that's the definition of of insecurity is to be to be small in your own eyes, or overinflated in your own eyes. So I love the the you know the idea of right sizing yourself. I read a book by a psychologist called Daryl von Tongren on humility. I think it's just called humble. And he says that the essence of humility is right sizing yourself, you know, and I think that's that that's it, you know. Um Rich, you alluded to the working genius. I don't know how many people are familiar with this. This is a Patrick Lincioni, the table group um tool. And, you know, like so many of you listeners out there, we've enjoyed and been helped by Enneagram and Myers Briggs and all the stuff. It's great. They all measure different things, right? Enneagram measures motivations, Myers Briggs uh measures preferences and that kind of thing. What the working genius does is it shows us how teams work best, like what we do best in a work setting. Yeah. And that really helped us because we we had a lead team that was about 10 or 11, actually, it was maybe 12 people out of a staff of at the time, maybe 25. So half the team was on lead team, half's not, you know. And we're like, this is we this is not as efficient. There are some places where honesty was was being hampered by the size dynamics. And so we knew we needed a team of more like five or six to have a little more freewheeling, open conversations. So we we wanted to choose five or six from the lead team and create a top layer team called the Strat team, strategic team. And in processing that, the working genius was immensely helpful. And a consultant that I was working with, same consultant that works with Rich, but I was working with him individually as a leadership coach, uh, and processing through this. So the idea of the working genius, for those who don't know, is think of it as altitude. You start with W, which is wonder, then I, which is uh invention, and then D, which is discernment, G, which is galvanizing, E is enablement, helping people get stuff done, and then T is tenacity. So in terms of altitude towards a task, you go from 30,000 feet all the way down to like in the weeds. And you know, we had a lot of people that were um not able to function in the WID kind of zone, wonder, invention, and discernment, because we were constantly having conversations that were more GE level in our lead team. So it gave us the boldness to create the strat team. And then one of our guys on our team, on the Strat team, Ben, had this idea of saying, look, it's not necessarily hierarchical as much as it is sequential. And it's it's when you're beginning something, you need to talk about it with this sort of open blue sky kind of process. Then it goes to this, then it goes to this. And that also, that's not just like a psy-op, you know, tricking people into believing it, but it actually is true. You know, it's sequential more than hierarchical. Um, I also want to say one more thing about this. It also helped highlight for me a broken link in our process at Rock Harbor. We were on a lead team retreat with all, you know, 12, so strat team plus the remaining others on lead. And we brought in that consultant, uh, a buck to come in and help us with a strat op. And in the midst of this, one of the things that came out as missing or confusing in our work groups was uh Lauren Peterson actually named it. She said, There's a gap between ideation and activation. And she's like, I don't know where that's happening, but it seems like it's happening very fast. And then the rest of us are brought in when it's already activated, and now we got to go get it done. We got to go G-E-T. And I started laughing because Buck goes, Well, you have a leader who's a DG. That's me. I'm a discernment galvanizer. So he's like, in the working genius, the DG is called the magic moment, where you move from discerning to galvanizing. We're acting now. And he's like, Unfortunately, you have a leader who the magic moment happens in his own brain, you know, in his own heart. And so I was like, oh my gosh, that's totally true. So I started listing six new initiatives that we'd launched over the last nine months, and they all came from my brain. But but but then I would I would float them with guys like on our team who were very enthusiastic, more like enablement, like support, you know. So I'd got, guys, do you think we should do this thing for Christmas Eve? And they're like, absolutely, you know. I'm like, do you think we should launch a red? They're like, a hundred percent, you know. So my nobody was slowing down the DG magic moment. And and when the lead team was being brought into it, it it was like, okay, guys, this is what we're doing. And it would, they were bringing them in to G E T, get it done. And so we realized that our process was missing there. There needed to be an intentional wrench thrown in the gears to go, I see what you're discerning, I see what you're ready to galvanize, push pause, bring that to the entire lead team. And that feels like giving power away. I mean, there's a lot of pastors, you guys, who'd be like, what? The Holy Spirit spoke to me. I'm supposed to do this. Don't be a naysayer. You have little faith. You are like the 10 spies who didn't believe or, you know, whatever. And it's like, no, actually, if you slow it down, everybody can get on board and then we can get this train moving together. Do you have have you experienced that?

SPEAKER_03 38:50

That that as a fellow DG or that Wow, Sharon, are you a DG as well, Sharon? Yeah. Are you also?

SPEAKER_01 38:58

I am. I am.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Oh wow, look at us.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Look at us. I'm about to say we're causing a lot of pain in our churches. That's what that's what I hear.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

I mean, it's funny too, because I we had like a very specific, we made a decision to make like a really big change, and I thought everyone was on board. And then we met with all the staff that it was gonna impact. And at one point, our executive director just stopped and she said, you know, at the beginning of the calendar year, you said that we were gonna be slowing down this year, and this does not feel like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Amazing. Wow. So do we pass through the same church team? This is becoming a support group for uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

I'm getting triggered right now. That's so good. Before we land this plane, I want to switch, swing the pendulum just a little bit for a second because a number of folks who are leading uh need to be reminded of the power that they wield and the authority and all that. But then on the other end of the spectrum, how do we speak to pastors that might need to um assert themselves? Uh some might hear this and go, okay, um what's what's God's word to me, or what's a word of encouragement for me who's trying to get to a place where I have not recognized my power. Uh, I have not recognized the authority that's been entrusted to my care. Uh, would you any of you offer like any words of encouragement to swing the pendulum just a little bit here to focus on those pastors and leaders who actually folks might benefit if they were a little bit more assertive uh and clear in their leadership? Any any words of encouragement for them?

SPEAKER_03 40:50

You know, one angle of this that I've also had to wrestle with is being a female leader. Because I I've not been taught how to how to lead, first of all. Like women tend to not have mentors. And so I am constantly sort of learning on the fly. And that's why one of the reasons I'm really grateful for you guys is that I can text you and be like, what do what do I do about this? You know, and just to have your feedback has been really helpful because I just wasn't mentored to do this. But one of the things that I also find early on, I found myself doing a lot that I think a lot of women do. And so for any women who are listening, is apologizing a lot or qualifying my direction or saying, well, I don't know. And some of it too is I think when you are knowledgeable with knowledge comes with the understanding of what you don't know. And so there are definitely areas of church, of ministry, of worship, of you know, leading children, students, whatever that I I've not thought about it as much as our staff has in those different areas. And so I want to grant that and trust their judgment. But what I ended up doing was just always qualifying my direction and saying, you know, I could be wrong or, you know, I don't know. And I was trying to be humble. That that's what I was trying to do. But what I was really doing was undermining my own authority. And so that is another tension, another balance that I've I've had to learn is that our people do benefit from clear vision and strong direction. Yes. And so learning how to hold those things together has been a learning curve for me. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, I think that's right. And I, you know, the the biggest learning curve for me. I mean, I led a congregation for 10 years, but it was within a larger church ecosystem in which I was more of like a number two type chair. And so it's different. And and and coming to Rock Harbor was the that was the biggest learning curve up was not only leading a board, but what is it like to sit truly in the one chair? And there's a weight with that that sometimes feels uncomfortable. And so if you're a new leader, uh you know, you go, ah, I don't want to, and we we sort of theologize our insecurity, and we go, no, no, no, I'm just being humble, and we, you know, but but actually you're not stepping into the role again, right-sizing yourself. And so some decisions need to be discerned in community, and that involves a whole process. Uh, I think of the you know, Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council. There's a phase where there's a robust discussion. So the when we've done this well at Rock Harbor, we had a big decision where we added women to the eldership a few years ago. And there's a robust uh patient season of discussion, and then there's a there's a moment where you've got to make it. Decision. And even in the Jerusalem Council moment, James speaks. He speaks last, but he speaks. And he says, It is my judgment, therefore. He doesn't play the God card, doesn't play the if he's the half brother of Jesus, doesn't play that card. You know, and I think for us as leaders, you don't have to say God told me or whatever, but you do have to declare it. There comes a moment where you have to be declarative, move from discerning and discussing to declaring and deciding, you know? And and and then and then whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Come on now, come on now. And then at the end of that Acts 15 passage, they send leaders with Paul and Barn Wisp up to Antioch to deliver the decision. And this is the third phase: discussion, decision, the delivery of your decisions are just as important as the other two phases. And so sometimes leaders are afraid to decide because they go, well, how's that going to impact people? Well, if you're concerned, don't shy away from the decision. Just follow it through personally, you know? So I've I've seen poor leaders make heavy-handed decisions and then not talk to the person that it's that it's impacting. If you have to let someone go or you have to close a program, make the decision and then go talk to them. Go, I'm so sorry we're not going to run this program anymore. I've appreciated all your years of faithfulness. Like face the music of your decisions. Yes. So the delivery should be personal, the decision should be clear. The discussion and discernment should be robust.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Oh, well, I mean, where's my legal pad when I need it here? I would have just put all the notes down. Uh that's excellent, Glenn. That's uh that's that's really outstanding. Uh I'll just add here uh in my own journey, uh, I have in the last three, four years asserted myself in ways that I think have been really important for the team. And part of the reason why I wasn't asserting myself was number one, uh fear of failure. That if I declare myself in a particular way, we're gonna do this and it doesn't work out. Uh, what's that gonna do to me? What are people gonna say about me? And so I had to really come face to face with a willingness to um risk a little bit more, number one. And then secondly, I think I I did not uh spend enough time in my early years really trying to get clear about my values. Uh, you know, it's that phrase by Oscar Wilde. Oscar Wilde said, you know, most people are other people, uh, their thoughts are someone else's opinions. It's a famous quote from Oscar Wilde. And uh it's as leaders, it's very easy not to get clear on our own values and what's real what's what really matters to me, and how would I want to see that uh expressed in the life of our church for the glory of God uh in the name of Jesus? And so fail risk risking failure at the same time getting clear on our values, I think can really help us uh to right size ourselves uh and to assert ourselves in really appropriate ways. What a great conversation, guys. I mean, with the hosts and the guests today. Wow. Wow, wow, good stuff. Really great stuff, really great stuff. Well, friends, listen, thanks for joining us for uh this edition of the Resilient Pastor Podcast. If this conversation encouraged you, share it with a fellow pastor or a leader. You know, you know that person right now. You know that you know God has put their face and their name in your mind. Send them a text message uh with this link. Uh, give them a word of encouragement, say, I was thinking about you. Uh and of course, you can find more Barna research and resources at Barna.com. And again, thank you to one of our partners, World Vision. Together in partnership with Daniel Strickland, 10x10, and the Barna team, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Thanks for watching and listening to the Resilient Pastor Podcast. All right, everyone, see you next time.