72 | Luke and Anna Hellebronth on Worship Leadership & Alignment

In this episode, Sharon Miller sits down with Glenn Packiam and worship pastors Luke and Anna Hellebronth to explore the relationship between senior pastors and worship leaders and why it matters for a healthy church. Drawing from their experience at Rockharbor Church, they discuss how trust, alignment, and shared vision shape both services and culture. They offer practical insight into planning, navigating creative tension, and partnering in leadership. This conversation equips pastors to build stronger, more aligned relationships with their worship leaders.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Well, welcome to the Varna Resilient Pastor Podcast, where we help pastors lead with wisdom, hope, and courage in a changing world. I am Sharon Miller, and this podcast is part of Barna's mission to encourage and equip pastors to be resilient spiritually, emotionally, and in their leadership. Together, we'll explore new research and real conversations to help you understand the times and know what to do. If you're not doing so already, go to Barna.com and sign up for the free Barna email to access the latest Barna articles, resources, and special discount offers. And as always, I am joined by my buddies Glenn and Rich. This is dropping a week out, I guess, from Easter or right before Holy Week. And so, how are you guys feeling about Easter? Are you ready?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Oh, first of all, um, my sermon has been done. 60% of my sermon has been done. What a flex. October 2025. And I'm serious. This is the first time it's ever happened. And so uh this is the first time I've ever felt this much uh joy, uh, this much freedom, uh, this much spaciousness, uh, margin. All the good words. Uh, and it's because I we've been in this series through the Gospel of Mark. And six months before we started the series, I started reading a commentary, and the commentary was great. And as I finished the commentary after about five months, I thought, here it is, I have it. And so I'm very clear about where I'm going. I feel great about it. However, I feel angst about what I'm gonna wear. Uh, and so uh, you know, when it comes to like, is it a is it I had a season where it was bow ties. I haven't done a bow tie maybe seven years. Uh does that feel like 2022 2010s, like too much of the 2010s? I don't know. Uh, but I I'm I'm conflicted. And so pray for me.

unknown 2:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

You know, that was not the answer I was expecting, Rich. It's a heck of a flex, but also it's very inspiring, you know. That well done.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Um Yeah, we're really happy for you, Rich.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

I'm sure thrilled. Thrill really wow filled with admiration and awe. Uh, I am still working on my outline. Uh, we are we you know, we planned the series that we're in. It's a year-long series through the Bible. We planned that a year and a half ago, and it's been awesome 50 chapters of 50 episodes of the Bible story. And I thought it was a good idea when we planned the series to go Psalm 23 for Easter. Like, man, that's kind of a fresh angle. Walk through the valley of the shadow of death. Jesus is the one who turns death into a valley because he went through it, you know? So I was like, okay, I got my riff. He he went through, so we can go through, you know? And uh, but sad to say, I don't have much more than that.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

But so I need to do a bit more work.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Oh man. Well Europe's are a good start.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

I mean, how about you, Sharon?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I mean, per usual, I'm here for the for the normals. Like I'm here to make people feel better about themselves. So last year, I was actually a lot like Rich. Like months and months out, I had this like vision and this metaphor, and I spent months like chewing on it. And I was able to sort of build out like so much of the sermon and like our kids' curriculum, like all this around this metaphor. And this year, I am like, Lord, what what is it? Like, what do you want me to say? And it's really unusual for me because I am someone that like months out, I'm kind of like looking ahead and I am feeling like a lack of inspiration. And so I know I mean, I'm not stressed about it because one thing, one thing I have learned with sermon prep is that God always comes through. Like the Holy Spirit always provides, like He is going to give me exactly what I need to preach the good news on Easter Sunday. But right now, for anyone else who is, you know, feeling shamed by not being as prepared as my my brother Rich, just know that.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. I listen, I'm not gonna hold back when God's been good to me. I'm I'm I'm gonna declare.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

But Sharon, but Sharon, how are you doing on the outfit planning, though? The Easter outfit planning. That's what's important.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

I'm like, I'm like halfway there. I have my I have my pants.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Okay, so I'm wondering if I should wear Jordans for the first time. I've never worn Jordans like on Easter Sunday, like with a suit or something like that. I've never done it. Uh so anyway, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

It's really important.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

So we'll save us, Sharon. Save us.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

We'll be praying for that. Well, before we get into today's conversation, we want to thank one of our partners, World Vision. Together, in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and the Barna team, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Well, in just a moment, we're going to be talking about what it looks like to lead worship ministries and more specifically the relationship between senior pastors and worship leaders. I will be joined by Anna and Luke Helen Bront, who serve as worship pastors at Rock Harbor Church, where Glenn pastors. And actually, I got to interview Glenn as well. Glenn also spent many years as a worship pastor before stepping into senior leadership. And Anna and Luke are leading very thoughtfully in their roles. So this conversation brings together a really rich mix of experience and perspective. And it's kind of a longer conversation, but I don't know about you, Glenn. I felt like we could have kept going. Like there was, there's so much to unpack there. And so I wanted to actually let you kind of take the lead in us talking about stuff that we didn't even get to, Glenn, because there was a lot I wanted to pick your brain about because you have this unique experience of having been a worship pastor and a lead pastor. And because that relationship is both important and complex, I was just curious what, and you get into this a little bit in our conversation, but how that experience has shaped your leadership of your worship pastors.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Well, you you did such a great job uh facilitating and mining out some wisdom that really came from Luke and Anna in that combo. It's really an amazing conversation and a lot of good insights there. But I think with for senior pastors, you know, you're gonna listen to this, and really what's important for you is to hear what's possible, um, what your worship leaders are kind of envisioning and dreaming about. I think what's helped me is to think of the worship leader not as a song leader or a music leader. Now, I know depending on your church background, for some pastors, you go, well, I don't understand. That is what they're doing. They're just picking the hymns or choosing the, you know. My background as a worship leader to answer your question, Sharon, helped me know. No, actually, for most worship leaders today, the way that they're being formed by the music they're listening to, the worship leaders they're following, they're not following song leaders. They're not following people who are just selecting hymn number 47, you know, they're selecting people who are trying to help people experience God. And so, as a now I sit in this lead pastor chair, I know that these worship leaders are not trying to just fill up time, take space, warm up the church for the preaching. They're actually trying to lead people into an encounter. And so that encounter paradigm is so important for worship people. Uh, you're what you know, you you're this is March Madness, Sharon. You you love all things Duke, especially in this moment. But uh Lester Ruth is a is a professor at at Duke and he's done all this research on contemporary worship. And he says contemporary worship carries a Pentecostal charismatic genetic code. And what he means by that is there was a time where contemporary worship emerged out of um uh more of a seeker movement, more of an evangelism motive. Like the motivation was, let's sing contemporary songs so we can reach contemporary people. That impulse kind of died. And instead, what took over was more of this Pentecostal impulse, which is let's sing these songs as a way of meeting with God. And so wherever you're pulling songs from, you know, Passion, Hill Song, Bethel, Elevation, whatever, you know, like odds are, there's a few exceptions that come from the more reformed circles, but odds are those people are writing songs to help people encounter God. So I my question would be for you guys is like, in your church context, how would you say your worship leader, what is it, what is it you think they're trying to accomplish with their time in the church service, Rich?

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah, I I think we're trying to, and this is a conversation I have uh with our worship pastor, I think uh often. Uh partly because um I'm not a I'm not a worship leader in the sense of leading, although I did, did I tell you I led worship once in my small church? Uh I think I told you guys before. My first church, Sister Miriam, uh, she said to me once, uh, Rich, you're leading worship next week. It was a small church, about 40 people. Now I knew two songs. And uh and I said, Well, I I don't sing and I only knew two songs. She said, Don't don't worry, in a Pentecostal church, you just get the song started and uh the music will drown you out. Uh and so that's that's exactly uh what happened. Oh lord. And so so I'm I I've I'm a one-time worship leader. It was literally one time. Uh and uh in terms of our church and our pastor, you know, to your point, it it is encounter and formation. And Glenn, you would use that language as well. Like we're trying to create a space um where there is a unique expression of God's of God's presence in a way in which people are much very open. Uh there's a heightened awareness of the presence of God in that space there. But it's also the ongoing acts of uh formation, the the slow work of formation where um I think good worship, good singing um uh is theologically formative. I mean, I mean this is go back to the hymns. I mean, Charles Wesley, I mean I've been reading a lot of just Methodism recently, and I mean, uh, the hymns were written not simply to just get through a set, yes, but to allow a theological imagination to form the worshiper. Uh folks were not going necessarily to seminary, but they were getting theological training uh in the songs that they sang. And so I think we're trying to hold together what are the lyrics, what are the songs, what are the reframes, what are the points of truth that we want people to get deep down uh in their soul. Uh moreover, I mean, I think of like it was I think it was Augustine who said it first, and Luther popularized it, where it says, you know, the person who sings prays twice, which is a way of um honing into the connection between our life with God. We're not just getting through something, we're not just singing through something to make up time because that's what we do, but it's a means of communion and encounter uh and formation. And I think the unique challenge for us in our in our multi-ethnic, multicultural context is we do want to facilitate encounter and formation. At the same time, we have cultural dynamics in which uh, because of our diversity, what are the songs uh that we want to highlight in order to reach the in order to contextualize well uh and uh who God has put in for you know in front of us to shepherd and to leave. But those are just a few of the thoughts that we're thinking about on a regular basis over at New Life.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

How about you, Sharon?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

You know, another element that is a little bit difficult to quantify because it's a little bit subjective. And Glenn, you and I were actually texting about this after our conversation last week, but there's also an aspect to which the music of worship, it it is art. And they're you're bringing in this creative aspect. And I love how Rich, you you mentioned that you're shaping like the theological imagination. And so it's not just that we are, you know, downloading facts to our people, but we're shaping them kind of on all levels, and really good art does that well, that you're encountering beauty and something transcendent. And I think that worship music at its best is doing all of those things. And so that's something that I'm always kind of weighing as as I'm thinking through like, what are we singing is is not just the theological correctness of it, but is this good art? That's right. And that's really hard because that depends on who you ask. And so that's kind of like a conversation that that we're often having. And there's also that the diversity of, you know, that cultural component that art looks different in different cultural contexts as well. And then there's also the just the reality that we are a smaller church. And so, you know, you're sort of listening. It's very similar in the same way that every pastor feels like they're being compared to like Craig Groschel or, you know, these like world-class pastors that everyone kind of hears. And I think there's an ex another version of that where every worship team kind of feels like we've got to be, you know, elevation when if you have a small church, you know, you you just don't have as many musicians to draw from. And so there's that level of it as well that we're we're always kind of like, okay, who do we have? And how do we steward all of that? It's like a constant conversation that that we are having. Um, Rich, one question I wanted to ask you that we did kind of get into is because of the complexity of the lead pastor worship pastor relationship where you have kind of different visions, different roles that you're trying to like bring into alignment. And sometimes that happens with very um agonizingly, I guess you could say. Like sometimes you miscommunicate, sometimes you hurt feelings, um, sometimes you give feedback and it it hurts, you know? And so I was curious, looking back on your leadership of your worship ministry, yeah. What would you say are some of like the mistakes that you have made?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

The biggest mistake I've made in this area is not being clear about my values uh as it relates to the kind, the quality, um, the the diversity, the kind the the environment. Uh and be and when because I'm not clear, other people are gonna just fill that gap. And then I'm gonna go, oh, that's frustrating, or why is this person leading? Or why is this person playing this? And and I'm pretty clear, like for me, music is I'm not sure if you've ever done the Berkman assessment, just you know, interest and personalities. Anyway, it's uh there's persuasiveness is on the top of that list for me. And secondly, is music. And so music is a very high value, but it was probably 2023. Uh, in fact, I was at a retreat with Glenn and another friend of ours, and uh, I had to just get clear around this is a significant point of interest for me and a value pastorally, and I think I just have to get clear, and our worship pastor has been with us for many years, Kate. She's phenomenal, and um, that's been really just helpful to have. But I'll just mention one thing that has been super helpful around having those conversations. Because I have um created an environment where I get regular feedback on my sermons, um, that creates an environment where everyone gets feedback, including in worship. That's it. And so because I'm modeling, hey, if I could, if my sermon can be critiqued and strengthened, and even better if to if to use Glenn's kind of language that he uses at Rock Harbor that we've adopted at New Life, then everyone can grow. And I think because of that, that's created an environment where we can have those conversations on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

That that man, that's that's so huge. And just to name something you both said earlier about um on the philosophical, even theological level, encounter formation, uh, mission are the three words we use at Rock Harbor. Everybody has a version of that. You know, what are Sundays for? We want to meet with God, but we also want to be formed to become more like Jesus. And we want to be aware that that there are guests and people in our midst that are currently, you know, seeking, you know. And I I think it's a generalization, but because of how worship leaders are being trained or how they're being raised up, they're not necessarily being trained. They're just sort of being inspired by people they follow online. And that's not a pejorative, that's just the reality of how learning happens these days. They're going to tilt towards an encounter thing. They're going to push that. We're here to meet with God, we're here to meet with God. And a lot of the conversations, not necessarily with Luke and Anna, but just with any worship leader in general, is going to be to remind them, okay, but also how is this forming us? And also, how is this helping us welcome people who are not yet, you know? And then we talked in the convo, Sharon, but like to move beyond the theological and philosophical into this methodological realm, which is a lot more subjective. And that's when some of the stuff you're saying, Sharon, like, well, so what style are we going to do? Or even Rich, what you say? I didn't provide clarity on level two, you know? And so maybe like leaders, you start with level one clarity about what Sundays are for, but then level two clarity of how should Sundays feel? That's kind of level two, you know? And and some of this you gotta say, yeah, it is subjective. And I am making a judgment call. I'm making the best judgment call I can, not just on my personal preferences, but what I think our context and our season require. But it's a judgment call. And but that I think a lot of pastors shy away, Rich, from what you did, which is they don't want to give clarity on how it should feel because that feels too subjective. But yeah, but if you don't give that clarity, you'll continually be unhappy.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

And any any good team dynamic is I'm gonna be able to say, hey, this is what I'm sensing, this is what I'm seeing. What are you seeing? What are you sensing? And then let's figure out a way where we can do this together, knowing that uh if we're going to be at a point where a decision has to be made, then it's probably gonna be me who's gonna say, um, let's go in this direction if we find ourselves at a stalemate. However, there is a synthesis of opinion that can be discovered as I'm naming my values and our worship pastors naming her values and the team around us. So hopefully we're prayerfully inviting the spirit to help us discern, you know, what's needed at this particular moment in the history of our church and in this context.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

And and Luke and Anna pushed me in really beautiful ways. Like the, you know, Sharon, there's this Barnastat that we, I think maybe we referenced, but during the pandemic, 81% of church-going American adults said experiencing God in church with others is extremely important to me. And maybe that was coming out of a pandemic hunger, but I feel like that hunger is still there. People come to church because they want to. And it's easy for me to go, no, people are coming to church because they want to learn, you know? And it's like, yeah, but you know, if you don't feel this as well, you don't really learn this. I mean, it was Cranmer, the English reformer, who said something like this uh what the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies. But you got to capture the heart first. And when I think about even all the reformers, you know, Luther wrote arguments, polemics. Calvin wrote systematics, he organized theology, but Cranmer wrote prayers. And there's something to be learned from that. You know, people might come from a tradition. Maybe some of you pastors, you come from that Luther tradition. You want your sermon's always a fight with the world or a fight with wrong ideology. Okay. Or maybe you're more like this Calvin guy. You're like, I just want to help systematically explain things. Okay, fine. Learn from Cranmer as well. Cranmer wanted to write poetry and prayers because beauty awakens the heart to love God, not just to know about God.

SPEAKER_06 21:13

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I want to go back to just one final question before we pivot over to our conversation with Luke and Anna. But I want to go back to what you said earlier, Rich, about having this culture of feedback and what that looks like practically, because, you know, the only other person who probably experienced as much critique as the lead pastor probably is the worship pastor, because they are subjected to the same sort of, you know, subjective whims of people if they don't like the style or they don't like the how loud it is, or like whatever it is. And so at the same time, it's one thing for us as the lead pastors to invite feedback. On our sermons because we're the ones in charge. It's very different for us to be giving feedback, them consistently receiving feedback when they're already in kind of a vulnerable high criticism position from their boss. And so I'm curious, how have you, what does that look like to be giving that feedback in a way that they can receive and also that preserves the relationship? Because that was something that we talked about with Luke and Anna is that the importance of building this relationship of trust. So what does that look like for you, Rich?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

I think if you ask Kate, our worship pastor, I'm very intentional. Almost every Sunday, I'm sending her a text message with words of just encouragement about what happened today. And that's just something I've been doing for uh a while. And I think creating a space where we're afer, this is kind of kind of, and I don't want to just say this is leadership 101, but on some levels it is. It's like if I'm creating a culture where we're offering words of encouragement and affirmation on a regular basis and in very pointed ways, not just a vague sense of, hey, great job. I think now there's spaces now, you know my heart, you know, you know I'm for you, you know I'm with you. At the same time, we can all get better, we can all grow. And uh, it's my task. I mean, I'm inviting that, not everyone's inviting that, but um, that doesn't mean because someone's not inviting that, that we can't have those difficult conversations. And, you know, quarterly or so, we're looking, you know, I'm I'm going down the road of, you know, you know, there's a difference between who can sing and who can lead. Uh, some folks are really great singers and not really great leaders uh in terms of the worship moment. Uh there are folks that are uh good musicians, but um, they uh when it comes to particular uh, you know, extemporaneous or spontaneous moments, they're just you know, and so what do we need right now? I mean, I'm getting on that level of like um uh feedback and such, but uh again, we can all grow. But it's for me, it starts with uh the team knows I'm for them. I'm I'm sending in words of encouragement. And at the same time, it's my task now to clarify expectations about how we're continuing to grow together. It's good.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Glenn, do you have anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_04 24:17

No, it's beautiful. That's right on.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Okay, perfect. Well, on that note, I am gonna turn it over to our conversation with Anna and Luke. Well, Anna and Luke, welcome. We are so glad to have you both with us. You serve as worship pastors at Rock Harbor Church alongside Glenn. And it is clear you lead with a lot of intentionality and care and how you work together as a team. And so we're excited to learn from you. But before we jump into our conversation, I would actually love for our listeners to hear a little bit more about you. And so if you don't mind just telling us a little bit about your journey in worship ministry and what has led you to where you are now at Rock Harbor. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 25:07

It's so good to be with you guys today. Thank you for having us. Such a joy. We love talking about this stuff. Um, I'll start real quick. I'm Irish. I moved to London when I was 18 to study musical theater, and we were part of a church there called Holy Trinity Brompton, um, which is kind of really known as well as being the home of the Alpha Course. And uh so we joined there as students. Our worship pastor at the time was a guy called Tim Hughes, and so I started actually singing backing vocals on the team, and just as I grew more in that and um kind of felt this tug towards leading worship, which I shied away from for far too long, um, but eventually um kind of stepped into that role. And I guess the time that we stepped into at HTB was a time of significant growth and a lot of training. You know, Alpha was doing that, training up leaders all around the world, and um, we were part of something called Worship Central, which Luke can share more about in a second, which really has a heart to train and equip worship leaders all across the globe. So we stepped into that as baby worship leaders, and so it was an incredible environment for us to grow and learn in.

SPEAKER_07 26:17

So yeah, similarly, I uh moved to London to study music. Uh I did a jazz guitar degree four years at Trinity College of Music in London, and during that time, similarly um started going to Holy Trinity Brompton and honestly never thought that I would uh begin leading worship or songwrite or any of that. Uh, I was probably a little bit of a kind of uh a musical snob at that point, and um didn't think worship was or contemporary worship was particularly uh I don't know, uh enamoring to me. Um and uh but I got involved in the worship team, began to lead worship, and I loved it. I fell in love with the reality that um whereas in jazz, as much as I love it, uh it was about um you know me expressing myself through improvisation of people enjoying that, watching that, partaking in that. Whereas the shift in leading worship was now suddenly I get to help people express themselves to God. Um, and to me, that was like a paradigm shift that I just loved and enjoyed and felt alive in, and then beginning to songwrite and understanding the power of lyric and um you know putting the word of God, the scriptures into song and and with music was just uh an incredible shift for me. And then it just snowballed, um got involved in worship central, and worship central's mission really was or his values were to encounter God, equip the worshiper, and empower the local church. And so that was a real privilege to be part of um seeing God move through that, uh, to see worship leaders equipped and trained really to empower the local church to be alive in worship. And that was at the time, um, certainly in the UK, where we were experiencing a lot of renewal in the Anglican church, and so just amazing time. Um, and we learned so much during that uh time working with senior pastors, particularly Nikki Gumble, and then we planted from there. Um we had a little stop gap in Malaysia, which is a really cool link with Glenn.

SPEAKER_04 28:31

Um, we knew each other in Malaysia, but but we had this you know common experience of Malaysia, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:38

Yeah, we we were there for seven months helping to plant a church there from HTB, which became the home of um Alpha Asia Pacific. And so um, long story short, seven months there, and then from there we came back to the UK, helped to plant a church called Gast Street in Birmingham with Tim and Rachel Hughes, spent uh about eight years there, and then God pretty wildly um called us very clearly to Rock Harbor and to partner with Glenn in all that's going on here. So that's a snapshot, but we're yeah, that's a bit of our journey.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Uh would you say the weather in Southern California is better or worse than England?

SPEAKER_05 29:22

I mean, it's pretty life-changingly better. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

I'm sure. Well, y'all have a lot of experience in a lot of different contexts. So you have been in England, you've been in the United States, you've been in Malaysia, you've been in established churches, you've been in church plants. And so I'm really curious, and this is a conversation I've really been wanting to have for a while because the worship pastor, lead pastor relationship is a really important relationship and also a really complicated one. And I was just commenting to you guys before we even started recording. I think there's also because it's such an important relationship, I think there's a lot of spiritual warfare around that relationship. And so I would really love to hear, and Glenn, you are, I've not heard anything from you. I've I've asked you zero questions. I'm gonna come back to you. So um, because I want to hear your insight on this as well. But based on all that experience that you guys have had, what are some of the common challenges that you have observed in that worship pastor lead pastor relationship?

SPEAKER_07 30:47

Yeah. Well, I mean, firstly, I want to say we we just love partnering with Glenn on this. I mean, you know, we had this um at Gastry as well with Tim being a worship leader, but I think we we feel so blessed to be partnering with Glenn on this because he has such, firstly, such a value and then a sensitive sensitivity to worship and the power of worship and encounter. It's one of our values at Rock Harbor. Um, I think one one of the things that I think worship pastors um forget often about senior pastors is that they have so much to think about. Yeah, senior pastors are holding so much, and I think as much as you can as a worship pastor to see that, like truly see that and understand that the the weight that they're carrying is huge, and that they're dealing with levels of conversation that as a worship pastor, fortunately, you you don't really ever have to deal with, you know, from buildings and facilities to capital campaigns and uh you know, raising X million dollars or whatever, um, you know, to big pastoral conversations, to running a staff. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And that's a big weight to have on your shoulders. And I think um, as a worship pastor, as much as you can support um the senior pastor to say, like, listen, I've got, I've got the worship, like I'm I'm fully immersed, I'm looking after it, you know, I care about this, I'm shepherding the worship life of the church. If you can have that kind of communication where the the senior pastor feels like, oh, I entrust you with that, um, it I think is a huge part of feeling understood in the relationship. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

Yeah, and I think I would add, um I think we all understand spiritually and theologically what happens in a service time together with uh with times of worship and then with teaching. And so I think we, you know, more or less are on the same page on that. And I but I would have observed that sometimes in practice it can feel a little functional and that it, you know, it's like a worship slot. We do some nice singing where we all, you know, it's effectively Christian karaoke, where we feel good, and you know, in some cases it's the warm-up for the real thing, which is the the teacher, you know. Um, and and that's we can that's the danger that we can fall into that in practice, where in reality we understand what's going on. So I think um what can be what we try and do as worship pastors is to uh ensure that Glenn knows that we are carrying the weight spiritually of what is happening in the service with him, alongside him. And so everything that we can do to help communicate that through understanding, through lots of conversation, you know, we meet every week and we talk about various different things, but practically that's like a really important space for us to be able to mine out those those different things. So um, yeah, that's that's what I'd add to that.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I'm definitely hearing about the importance of building trust in that relationship, that you are trusting, the worship pastor is trusting, you are weighing things that I can't see. And the lead pastor is trusting that the worship pastor has just as much skin in the game and is like equally committed to the same things that I am. Glenn, since you also have a background leading worship in your your previous life or a couple lives ago. And so um, is there anything that you would add? And then also, how has that shaped how you interface with your worship pastors?

SPEAKER_04 34:59

I mean, you know, I when I was leading worship, I was in my 20s and not nearly as mature as Luke and Anna are in thinking about the big picture and all of that. You know, like I think in my years of as a worship leader, I definitely had tunnel vision of like this is the most important part of the service, you know, what I'm doing. Um, and and there would be some moments where I remember there was a time when um uh early 2000s, the founding pastor of the church I was at in Colorado, he was getting some national media attention and all that. And there's some like national media camera crews that were gonna visit to capture some b-roll on a Sunday. And I just hated it. And he was like, they sent out this email to the staff, like, don't be weird, you know, like just be normal. And I was like, don't be weird. Like, we're at church, we're gonna have Holy Spirit stuff. Like, you can't tell us not to be weird. And so, like, the cameras with this like ABC camera crew, whoever it was, you know, that they'd like aim at the stage, and I would like turn my back to the camera. And it was like so obvious that people they I got confronted afterwards, like, were you turning your back to the camera? I was like, Yes, because church is not for the news stations, and you know, like I was like very so much conviction, Glenn.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

I know. Oh, so no, I lacked the maturity that you guys have, and I definitely was not seeing the bigger picture of all the dynamics.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Um, and I I do think what what Luke and Anna are saying is so important here, and even what you named, Sharon, just wanted to highlight it again. You said spiritual warfare. There is something biblically, you know, they send David as a musician to minister to Saul when he's being tormented. Uh they send the musicians out with Jehosaphat. You know, there's there's something in the book of Revelation, the book that gives us the most insight into the warfare behind the scenes of human history is also the book that has the most amount of worship songs besides the book of Psalms. So we though those are not uh coincidences. Worship and warfare go together. And so, and so I do think the enemy wants to either trivialize or divide this relationship. And so conversely, what you said, Luke and Anna, to like worship leaders, hey, be pay attention to what pastors are carrying. I would say to worship to pastors, pay attention to give more weight to what your worship leaders carry, you know. Uh it makes me sad. There's so many churches where the pastors really do think the worship is just the singing, uh, keep to your 15 minutes, you're gonna sing these three hit songs from the CCLI charts, and then you know, get out of the way. And it's like, yeah, you're missing what could be unlocked in a room through your worship team. Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

How have you guys figured out how to come in alignment? Because I think one of the things that can be really challenging is worship is creative, like it's it's an art. You know, there there is an extent to which I think a true artist is gonna, you know, stick it to the man and turn it back on the camera. You know, I think art art has this really powerful prophetic function. And so I think for anyone who is leading a creative, it's sort of like, how do I give you enough of a boundary, like enough of a direction? So we're headed in the same direction, but that you also feel like a lot of freedom to run. And how have you guys found your way to that balance? Or maybe you're still finding all are.

SPEAKER_07 38:43

Yeah, I mean, I could jump in there. I think um I think we are still finding our way. I think we're you know, we're just two years in. Glenn's been um here longer than us, three, so three years, I think. Um, and we're still we're still finding our way a little bit with that. I think a key, and it's so good you name that, Sharon, because you're totally right. You know, to be creative, I think, in essence, is to be a little bit prophetic. You're you're stretching the boundaries and you're um highlighting things that you're naturally pushing the boundaries a little bit. Um I think a couple of phrases come to mind. You know, one, when we lead worship, we're trying to hold two things intention. We're trying to be uh a pastor and a prophet. Um, that means we're trying to passer the people that are in front of us in our church that we know that we're in a relationship. You know, we're in a table group. And when I look out and lead worship and I see my table group in front of me, I know what's going on in their lives. I'm invested, I have skin in the game. That means I can lead them in a way that cares for them, shepherds them, um, uh draws attention to God's character in a way that I know that they need. Um, but I'm also thinking as a prophet, I'm thinking, you know, God loves us too much to leave us where we're at. You know, He wants to take us into uh new new space, new wide open space, new ground. And so I'm thinking also, what songs and how am I going to lead in a way that um leads them into new life, shows them something about God maybe they've not seen before, um, and um you know, brings fresh revelation. And I think so often we we forget as worship pastors that that that is also part of our um job is to kind of help lift people up into this space where they um are not just stuck where they're at in life, but also helps them see a new reality, you know, more of heaven on earth, introducing the kingdom of God um more and more. And so I'm I'm thinking pastor and profit, and then I'm also thinking we have this phrase um freedom within a framework. And you know, this is something that we've really worked through with Glenn and are still working through is what are the what are the boundaries, what are the frameworks that we want to put in place, particularly around Sunday mornings, Sunday, Sunday services, and what's what's our agency up to what point can we can we stretch in that? And then also I'd say um, you know, last night we had uh a worship night, which is an hour, hour and a quarter, just pure worship, prayer, the prophetic, and that's like a greenhouse space for us. We've got maybe 60 to 100 people, and there's just no agenda. We have three U's that we say, um unhindered, unscripted, unhurried worship. And that's awesome because in one sense, you know, then you you've got different spaces for different things, and we recognize that Sunday services can't be all things to all people, you know, it's a bit of a catch-all. We're trying to look after the mature 60-year-old believer, and we're also looking after the person who's just walked in off the street, who saw Rock Harbor on the side of the building and thought, hmm, what's going on in there today? You know, and walks in, um, or someone who's new to faith walking through Alpha, whatever it is. So I think having different spaces really helps manage expectations for worship leaders, worship pastors.

SPEAKER_05 42:10

Yeah. And I think um, you know, uh as worship pastors, you you have you have your finger on the pulse of the felt need of the room, which I think um obviously as a senior pastor, you're absolutely doing as well. But I feel like as worship pastors, you can you really focus in on that because you're trying to sense at this gut level, like how is this resonating? And obviously, music is a great gift to be able to do that. You know, songs really help us articulate the cry of our hearts that we wouldn't otherwise be able to do. That's the beauty of the Psalms. Um, but also space, like just giving space to allow whatever is going on up here to connect with whatever is happening down here, which is what we know the Holy Spirit loves to do. And it's worship leaders and worship pastors, like that's our zone. That's where we we we live. And there is a slightly, there is a, you know, you you can't kind of define that and how long is it going to take and whatever. So we do live in this tension of like uh in that space. Um, but the beauty of working then with a senior pastor who, you know, is well, in Glenn's case, he's teaching a lot of the time, like he is thinking about how to address that at you know every level, intellectual, but also how it connects here. So as we can try and if we that's why we work hard on this relationship, because the partnership of both is like incredibly powerful. And we're we're effectively all going after the same thing. We want people to encounter the presence of the living God in whatever way that we are wired. You know, some of us are more intellectual, some of us are more down here. And I think that you know sometimes the prerogative that we assume as creatives is like, well, you know, this is we know what's going on, and we just feel everything. And that can be really difficult to work with if it if it lives in that space without a lot of work on emotional health. And I think that's one of the things we love so much about Rock Harbor is that before any of us got here, they've been running emotionally healthy spirituality like year in, year out. I think two, three times a year, just consistently. I'm actually taking it here at the moment, but um she's becoming healthier every day. She's thrilled. Um, that's another conversation. Um, but uh I think this is really important work for everyone in leadership to do. Yeah, because I think where the spiritual warfare bit really happens is when expectations are misaligned, where a ministry decision is misunderstood as a personal one or a relational one. And I think we all have a responsibility to try and parse out the different dynamics that all of us have in ministry leadership, you know, and so like looking at our emotional health, looking at our theological views, you know, and differences, and even that is so nuanced, and how we can try and parse that out from what our personal conviction is or preference. And I I think I found like in our conversations with Glenn, being able to do that has really helped us as we try and unify.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Yeah, and I man, there Sharon, if I may, just try to name some of the things that Luke and Anna said that I thought were so, you know, that we don't want our listeners to miss. Starting with what you said, Anna, the there's a personal level of this. And I think Sharon, you said the word trust, which is which is so huge. And I I've I've done things where I'm addressing a practical thing, but I'm do I did it in a way that was a wounding or or hurtful on a personal level. So you've got to repair that hurt that level of personal thing while not necessarily changing the methodological decision. You know what I'm saying? So that being able to separate, or even like you start on the theological, philosophical. We go, what are Sundays for? Okay, yeah, it's for encounter, it's for formation, it's for mission. Great. You know, so we're there, we're locked into the, but you've got to go one click lower and go, okay, but practically or methodologically, what does that mean? So, you know, for us, we've got 22 to 25 minutes for this opening front set of worship. And then we save 12 minutes, sometimes 15 at the back end after this message for waiting on the Lord and for response. Sometimes it's songs and altar call, that, you know, prayer ministry. So we want to know where's the and we want a 75-ish minute kind of you know service. So even just name some of uh when you get to the methodological layer, I think that's where for senior pastors, you are making a judgment call. And you have to have the humility to say, I'm probably wrong about some of these judgment calls I'm making, you know? And one of the worst things for a senior pastor is to theologize all of your methodology. Yes, that's it. But yeah, you can have a theological reason for your methodology, but that does not mean your methodology is 100% correct. It's not. None of us are right, you know? Somebody asked me the other day, he's like, well, how do you know Rock Harbor's going to the biblical model of church? I go, come on, bro. There's like, there's like a lot of biblical models of church, you know, like so I have a theological reason for my methodology, but I'm not theologizing my methodology. So you just have to have a humility for that. Um, and then Luke, I love what you said about knowing the people, being in small groups with the people so that there's a pastoral thing. I would guess, and just a guess, in in all of our churches, there's like 20% of the people who are like, why can't we have an all-night prayer and worship meeting? Like, I just wish I'm more I'm spiritually hungry, like, you know, I'm really, you know, desired. Then there's 20% on the other end who are like, I don't know what this church Christian thing is. I just thought I should probably check it out. And then there's like the 60% in the middle where 30% are Christians that are kind of sleepwalking through life and they do need a prophetic wake up. And then 30% are like what you described, Anna. They're like, no, I love the Lord, but I'm a little more cerebral, a little less emotional, like the singing's great, but I'm just gonna take my notes and you know, they're good Presbyterians, Sharon, you know?

SPEAKER_07 48:31

So Sean's fine.

SPEAKER_06 48:34

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Glenn, could you give like a really brief example of one area where you had a conviction around methodology, or maybe it was just preference, and you communicated that in a posture of I could be wrong, but this is what I would like to do. Can you give a just a brief example of what that might look like?

SPEAKER_04 49:02

I mean, I think when we added, we made a decision to add a fourth service about a year ago, and we decided made a decision to do it all on Sunday as opposed to adding a Saturday night or a Thursday night, although the Thursday night, you know, who knows? That that's out there. But the team, we we kind of felt like, look, well, let's just have one workday, let's do this. And so, but in doing that, we added that extra service came in the morning. So we now have three morning services and then one evening one. And in doing that, we had to really shorten from like 85-ish, 80 to 85 minute service to like aim for 75. And that's a that's a methodological choice. You know, that's just like, and I, you know, I do think like I'm I'm not gonna defend that as a thus saith the Lord, or like proper theology warrants to say, yeah, I don't, I don't know. We could be wrong, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

I want to pause our conversation for a moment and say a special thank you to our partners at World Vision. World Vision has spent decades empowering the most vulnerable children around the world. And now, in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and our friends here at Varna, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Parenting the open generation offers nine practical principles to help you navigate the real challenges today's teens are facing and to support their faith formation in meaningful, grounded ways. Download ParentingThe Open Generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Again, that's worldvision.org backslash resilient26. We've also linked to it in today's show notes. Okay, back to our conversation. Well, let's get it a little bit more practical for a minute. I would love to hear what your actual planning process looks like from what's being preached to what's being planned in worship and how you collaborate on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:12

Yeah. Well, um, I know uh the teaching team or Glenn and Ben decide the sermon series. I mean, how far out in advance is it, Glenn? I'm not even sure.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

About a year, a year and a half. About a year.

SPEAKER_05 51:22

Yeah. Um, and so we have uh an idea of where we're sitting, you know, for a season um ahead of time. But then I think um uh so on Tuesday mornings we have a sermon circle meeting where the the preacher who's preaching that Sunday presents their sermon and people feedback. It's an amazing space of teaching and accountability, it's wonderful. So we would definitely be in on that to try and get a pulse of where the teacher is gonna go. Um, and then Sunday planning meeting happens straight after. So that's where we kind of uh debrief the previous Sunday in terms of the overall, like the rest of the elements of the service. So notices and then the response time, which is again where I think we really want to be in that room because we want to prophetically, if there's anything that comes up ahead, uh, want to voice that in those meetings and also you know check in on how it went the week before. So that's an incredible learning space collaboratively for the whole team on Sundays. Um, and then we uh have made a commitment for our worship team that we will get our set list up by Tuesday evening. So it's a quick turnaround for us.

SPEAKER_07 52:31

That's amazing. Well, hang on, hang on. Sometimes it it does bleed into Wednesday. Let's be honest.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

No, it's like sometimes the Tuesday before the immediate next Sunday.

SPEAKER_05 52:44

Yes. And that's because we with our worship team, you know, everyone's working full-time job. So if they're gonna be on on a Sunday, they've got to parse that time in their week where they're gonna prepare. And we and we do we have quite short rehearsal times. So it it demands more preparation at home from the team. So we want to give people as much lead up time as we can to honor their time, but also it just really helps our rehearsal times really practically. And I think we're, you know, for that front set, which happens before the message, um, we're we're holding in in our minds what's what's coming up, but for us, it doesn't like define our song choice. So there, you know, we we believe like that in that front set of worship, like we we can kind of go anywhere. Of course, we're gonna hold in our minds the overall picture of the service, but for us it doesn't dictate that um because we want to allow, be spirit-led, and just see where it goes. And then I think in the back set, that's where we're gonna really be taking a lot of or more of a lead from what's being taught, because obviously we know that's gonna be unlocking hearts and heads and minds in the room in a particular way. And so we want to add strength to that, however, we also hold that quite lightly. So just like really practically, we'll have one or two songs planned for that back set. Um, but because it's in the mix of prayer ministry, prophetic words, what the preacher is like sensing as they come out of that in response, that time aims to serve what the Holy Spirit is doing in that moment, in that room, in that time. So it's not like a definite that we're going into that. But we have all this on planning center so that whoever's teaching or leading the service can also see what we're thinking. But then there is these real-time decisions that happen in the moment. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

Well, and just to you know, a couple things, you know, maybe someone's like, What do you mean prophetic words? It's very light in the sense that sometimes it's a worship leader, sometimes it's whoever's hosting, sometimes it's the preacher who just might say something like, Hey, I wonder if some of you here today are here or you're here. So it's not like this you know, kind of dramatic, uh, the Lord is saying, you know, um, but just to name a few things that God might be doing in the room, I think that's really helpful. The other thing you guys do really well is you don't overcrowd your set lists. You want to talk about that? Like, how many songs are you planning for like 22, 25 minutes? How many songs generally?

SPEAKER_07 55:10

Yeah, well, I mean, I think, and that circles back to even, you know, when we were discussing timings, Glenn, and adding that third morning service, we realized um, you know, it's very easy, isn't it, to like work with the time that you're given and then basically fill it. And I think what we realized when we were doing that is it almost is if you do want to leave a little bit of space with the Holy Spirit, you want to go beyond a song um into a time of singing out or unearthing a song in the in the room, you know, a spontaneous moment, whatever, what whatever it is, um, you need you need a bit of margin to do that. And we realized we were filling the time with songs. And so, again, if you think back to the the freedom and framework, if you um take your framework and you're just filling the whole thing, it doesn't leave any margin. So, what we what we decided to do is plan one less song. So instead of planning four songs, we just plan three songs, knowing that then we've automatically built in three minutes or so of if we want to stretch this song there, we want to do actually go back into another chorus and see what happens there, or actually we want room for even um pulling out a tag or a song that everyone knows, but it's been spontaneously chosen in that moment. You just create more margin. I think that's really important for worship leaders to think about because in some ways, sometimes in your planning, you're you're your own worst enemy. You're filling a space and then you're saying, uh, we need more time, we you know, we want more margin, but well, actually, you could do something, there's there's something within your control, which is actually just take one piece out. You're still, you know, so so when we plan three songs, we're still planning great content in terms of our worship repertoire of vocabulary. What you're what you're doing is you're just creating a little more margin for anything else to happen alongside that. That's good.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

So going back to first of all, that's really helpful and I really appreciate that that answer. Going back to the practical, are you guys together coming up with the set list, or is it something where you guys come and sort of like present it and Glenn gives any feedback? Or how's that how's that work?

SPEAKER_04 57:25

No, I mean when I've worked with younger or less seasoned worship leaders, I've been more involved in the set list. That's true. But the the beauty of Luke, having Luke and Anna and their experience and their caliber and maturities, I don't, I don't even have to think about it. And it's all it's always amazing. Once in a while, there'll be a song that that for the response after the message, I go, huh? What do you think about this? What do you think about that? You know, more because I've been immersed in sort of where the message is going, I'm thinking that way. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 57:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 57:50

And we love that. We love that collaboration. I think it's really important. Um, I I think just one other thought I'd want to speak to worship pastors, um, and even senior pastors to encourage their worship pastors in, which is often, you know, we um we think about where we're at as a church, and you can see it as like short-term, mid-term, long-term, you know, different horizons. And I think so often we go from Sunday to Sunday and think about the immediate. And I think one thing that's really important is as a worship pastor, maybe alongside your senior pastor, is to think, well, where do we want to be in a year's time? You know, if, say, for example, we want to see a little bit more spontaneity or we want to see us as a church expressing worship that's more than just the words on the screen, and we want to go beyond that. Well, how can we get there? And that might involve then conversations like, well, how about building a little more margin in between the songs or planning one less? And or why don't you choose songs that have a little bit more of this language in rather than more formed, or you know, um, and so I think having that conversation is really important, and that's something that we've we've done with Glenn and and actually looking at where we're at two years into us being here now, we think back to where we were, and actually we have taken a lot of ground, but that has come through intentionality in collaboration and communication and prayer. Um, but it's really important part of it, I think.

SPEAKER_04 59:20

Which is so good on the horizons thing, Luke. Like part of some of how we spend our time together when we meet one-on-one. Some of it's like, how's this going? How's this going? You know, but some of it is like, what are you seeing? And and to, you know, this is where leaders can get off track with anyone in your core kind of senior leadership level. And I think worship pastor, senior pastor, or wherever you are in org charts, you are core uh partners. You want to see the same horizons together, you know. So you go, okay, what do you what do you hope worship culture looks like in the next year, in the next two years? And then you can go, well, maybe maybe not that. Maybe more that, you know, and you can kind of wrestle through that. Yeah. Um, otherwise, someone's chasing, you know, a very um, I don't know, whatever. They they have a certain idea, we're gonna do more hymns. And someone's like, no, I'm I'm seeing more, we're gonna be have flags and banners, you know, what are you know? And we just gotta know, are we envisioning the same future? Yes. Yeah. So good.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Glenn, how do you give feedback on songs? Like, especially if there's new songs, you know, I imagine this has got to be one of the more frustrating aspects of being a worship pastor is coming with a new song that you really are energized about and feeling like this is gonna be great. And then if the lead pastor is kind of like, ah, you know, I don't I don't know about that. Like, do y'all have any advice for navigating that really difficult dynamic?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:46

You know, we talk, we talk broadly about what ponds we fish from, so to speak. Like, okay, so what kind like, hey, what do we think about these stream of songs? Yeah, be cautious about da-da-da-da-da. And that, you know, so we'll talk broadly, like, hey, and and this is where I feel like there's no, we I don't we I don't we wouldn't even have to say because I already know we're on the same page, but things like we don't want so many songs that are about me and God making my breakthrough happen and my dreams come through. Like, yeah, okay, let's certain percentage, okay, you know. Um, so there's there's some measure of that we don't want to just sing about what we're experiencing now. We also want to sing about what's true about God. You know, so I think pastors can frame the conversation rather than it's kind of like the whole like uh give a man a fish versus teach him how to fish. You could give him a framework for choosing good songs, or you could be the czar that has to like say yes or no to songs on a week-to-week basis. I don't think you want to be in that position.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:40

I think you want to go, here's our value grid for the kinds of songs we are after.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:44

And I just want to add one thing as well. I think there's an uh there's a there's a thing with songs that sometimes you have to give them two or three times in a congregation to see if they quote unquote work. Um, there's just there's an element about songs that is timely, prophetic, but also contextual. You know, there have been songs that we've introduced, and I'm like, this is gonna, this is perfect for where we're at at church, like theologically sound, like it's brilliantly written. And we've led it a couple of times, we're like, okay, this just doesn't connect. So I think even to speak to some of the pastors out there, you may quickly make a judgment on a song, but you know, it's helpful to give it two, maybe three times just to make sure um that that's still resonating.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:40

I think one thing to add as well for worship pastors, one of the best things you can do is send your songs to your senior pastor, you know, that you're writing, particularly. If you know, um, yeah, I mean, say with Glenn, I mean he's amazing all around, but theologically, such a great mind and depth there. So, you know, that there'd be often uh occasions where we um I'm like Glenn could really add some weight here, you know, or we're a bit stuck. And so again, that collaborative um piece, as much as you can work on stuff together and and stay open, I think open-handed, open-hearted, you know, stay unoffended as a worship pastor, be curious, you know, lean into that relationship in in all ways on all fronts, is is so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

That's really helpful. That that's something that I have done poorly, I would say. Because some of it too is there's a preference piece here as well. And it's it's always hard to know. Like I loved what you said, Glenn, about making sure you're not theologizing or spiritualizing. What is just your preference? And so there, I think that that trust relationship is huge. Do y'all have any other? You already mentioned the having a strong relationship, building a strong relationship. Is there anything else that y'all would just speak into how lead pastors can build that kind of relationship with their worship pastors?

SPEAKER_07 1:04:18

I'll I'll say one thing. Uh, one of the things I love about Glenn is he so we talk about often there's two types of worshipper in in a Sunday service. Um, there's probably more types, but let's go for two stereotypes. One is uh one is a thermostat worshiper. You come in and you you say this is where the temperature's at. And what the other is uh thermometer worshipper. They come in, uh, what's it feeling like today? What's the vibe? What's the sound like? I don't really like this song. Oh, we're not singing holy forever this week, so I'm not gonna engage. Um sorry, that's no no slide. That's a good song like that. It's a great song. Um, but you know, um, so Glenn is 100% a thermostat worshipper. He comes in, he's on the front row, he's singing his heart out, he's wearing his heart on his sleeve, he's raising his hands, he's walking around, he's singing out. And I think for a church, you know, we often actually think of the senior pastor as kind of like the the main gatekeeper actually for the encounter value and culture of your church because worship pastor can work as hard as they want, choose the best songs in the world, da da da. But if your senior pastor isn't modeling worship, I mean, and that what the picture that the church gets is is not the fullness of of the encounter value. And so I think speaking to any senior pastor listening, um I just would encourage you to uh um Approach that Sunday. I and again, this circles back to like how much a senior pastor is carrying. You're thinking about you're about to preach, you're thinking about the conversation you just had with Bob in the lobby, you're thinking about the pastoral lunch that you've got after church. X, Y, and Z, I get it. But if you can um when you come to that Sunday service and that worship time, if you can lay your things down and just engage with ministering to the heart of God and be in that place with your worship pastor, that is worth so much. And I think I see that from Glenn every Sunday. Um, and so I just want to say that to senior pastors as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:40

That's kind. And I I mean, I I think you know, you there is something very practical on the on the level of the relationship, which is just time and accessibility, you know. I mean, we're we're at a church where this we have a staff team that's close to 30 people. The church is a decent size. I'm only saying those numbers to say there are people maybe listening who go, well, I can't do that. We have too big of a team, or we have to be, you know. And I and I just think, you know, pastors, we do have to figure out where to give our energy and we do have to figure out where to give our time and that sort of thing. And I I am not in a lot of decision-making loops. I'm not in a lot of like management um loops, but I do think a relational access being relational requires being accessible to the people that are shaping culture with you. I can't think of anyone who's shaping culture in a more direct way than your worship leader, you know? And so so I think I think paying attention to that is a huge thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:37

That's such a that's a great challenge and a great encouragement. And I really appreciate everything you guys have said. You know, one thing I was just reflecting on is Barna, one of their recent studies, they said that Gen Z 45% selected worship and music as one of the reasons they engage in church, which is really incredible, especially with some of the studies that we're finding about this increased engagement in worship among Gen Z, that there's something about worship that's really speaking. And so I'm so blessed. I do think, on the one hand, you mentioned that lead pastors have so much to weigh and to consider, but to make sure that as a lead pastor, you're sitting down and hearing like the thought and care and vision that your worship pastor is putting in it, like some of the stuff you guys have mentioned that I've just never thought of before and is so brilliant and insightful. And I'm I imagine also builds trust in Glenn as well to know that you guys are are thinking on that level. As we close, is there anything else that you guys wish or want lead pastors to understand? And and this is like don't hold back. This is the I know you're trying to be, I know you're trying to be honoring, you know, Glenn, just take off your headphones. Um it's very easy to be honoring with Glenn and I do like, I know you want to be honoring and say, you know, you guys are holding a lot. Yes. And also we need to be humble and learn. And so if if is there anything that we need to hear?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:31

Yeah, I mean I and honestly, this is one of the things I love about Glenn's leadership. And I know truly, but it is also the thing that I hear a lot of worship pastors really struggle with. And I mean, you've named it Glenn, it's that access, it's that presence, proximity, like, but I think something that he's honed is this ability to listen really well. So um, like listening to what we're saying, but also like the feeling, because again, remember, this is where we live that the feeling, that the wrestle that comes behind that, uh, being unoffended maybe by words that don't come out quite right, but really listening to the heart of the message behind that. Um, that has been really incredible for us, and something that I wish I saw more with with um lead pastors, just yeah, that ability to just listen really well and take seriously the um the message that worship pastors are carrying.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:40

Yeah, and I think I I just say maybe just two dangers with the Western church and possibly the American church even more, that we just need to keep an eye on is um uh you know, that phrase that was bandied around a long time ago, but but has remained. I think content is king. That um I think for senior pastors, one of the trappings, right, is um is is that the sermon becomes uh the focus of a of a service. And of course, like opening up the word of God, oh my goodness, what what could be more important? But uh at the same time just making sure that as you hold that value in such high regard that that you don't uh uh almost negate some of the other things, and what we're saying is actually worship. Um you know, one of the main reasons we gather corporately as a church each Sunday is to worship together. Um and so that obviously that looks like many things through the service, but just holding the that value up high enough alongside content, and then I think secondly, um I think I've seen um a lot of churches run more like a business than a community, and obviously that's really it's a really hard tension to to hold because you're talking about having a staff and budgets and all that, and so in many ways, um you know, we look at business models as helpful uh tools, um but where it becomes too corporate, particularly relationally, is where I think you begin to see that breakdown of that um that connection. And at the end of the day, we're talking about spiritual matters, you know, we're talking about God, what are you doing? That's not a business uh connection, that's a uh what is it's quite complex and it's quite mysterious. Like, God, what are you saying? What how are you leading us? That's a spiritual connection, and business doesn't necessarily cater for that. And so just holding those things in tension, I think as a senior pastor, I would say is is so important.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

Particularly in seasons of growth. That's where it feels like it gets really challenging because we need these models, but trying not to lose that presence.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:58

Well, and an example, even from the non-faith space, is I was thinking about a sports team, you know. Like you don't run a sports team like you run a management efficiency-based management company. There's certain companies that it's it's you manage by efficiency. So if someone's not meeting their sales goals, you push them aside, you know. But on a sports team, I mean, you have a guy who's a great player, but he might be shooting one for 15. Uh, and then you don't bench him because you mess with his psychology if you bench him. So you go, it's all right, but keep shooting, keep shooting. It's all right, you know? And whenever I think churches are like that in that they are human-rich organizations. That your best resource in a church is the humans. Why? Because humans are filled by the spirit. Uh programs are not filled by the spirit, humans are filled by the spirit. And so your human people are your are your biggest resource. So when you deal with people, though, it's dynamic. Sometimes we'll miss it. You'll preach a stinker, you'll you'll make the wrong judgment call, but you can't, you don't bench people right away because, oh, and that's where I feel like in the mega, mega, mega church world, we've systematized everything and we're management my numbers. And gosh, we're missing the human dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

Yeah, that's so good. Well, I could honestly ask you guys questions for another hour. This is such a there's just so much to talk about here. But thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. Just your wise counsel is gonna serve so many churches. And so, Luke and Anna, thank you. Would one of you mind closing us out by praying for specifically this relationship between lead pastors and worship pastors? I want to just circle back on that. It's so, it's such an important kingdom relationship. And so, if you would close us out by praying for that. Sure thing. Sure do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:52

Oh Lord, we um we just thank you for this time. I just thank you for uh everyone who is listening or watching this, Lord. I just ask even now, Holy Spirit, that you would come, that you would fill them, that you would land in their hearts and minds the truths that you need them to hear in this moment, at this time and in the context that they are in. And Lord, um we thank you for the ability to be able to just steward your presence and your praises together, not dependent on one person. We just thank you for the gift of that and um we also recognize the complexity in that. And so, Lord, we ask now that there would be, you would give us wisdom, you would give us deeper understanding, that you would humble our hearts, that you would make us attune us to where we have perhaps taken on things consciously or subconsciously that are not of you. And we ask that you would bring them to the light, that you would bring your conviction. Um, and we ask for the strengthening power of Jesus to come. And we just thank you that that is the strength that we can lean into when we talk about these things that are so close to your heart relationships, Lord. We just thank you that that is the power that we can lean into in all its strength and humility and surrender. And so, Lord, now would you just bestow upon everyone listening that ability to hear you, to hear you in heart and mind, to have unoffended hearts as we seek to serve and lead your church together. And we ask these things in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:42

Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:45

Thanks, guys. So thank you. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:48

Love it, love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:50

Well, thanks for joining us for the Resilient Pastor Podcast. If this conversation encouraged you, be sure to share it with a fellow pastor or leader. You can find more Barna research and resources at Barna.com. And again, thank you to one of our partners, World Vision. Together, in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and the Barna team, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Thanks for watching and listening to the Resilient Pastor Podcast. See you next time.